NPR Reports: REI vs L.L. Bean Return Policy

But, it's more reasonable to expect luggage to last forever

A pair of shoes or socks is supposed to wear out

Our Lifetime Guarantee
Unconditional lifetime guarantee—simply and without strings or conditions:

Ric Cabot
President & CEO
Cabot Hosiery Mills / Darn Tough Vermont
still Made in Vermont, USA

http://darntough.com/about-us/our-guarantee

Cabot Hosiery Mills went upscale with its own brand. Darn Tough socks are a premium product that sells for $15 to $26 a pair at retail shops (there’s no online ordering). And they come with a lifetime guarantee that covers their replacement for any reason. The dog chewed them up? No problem, they’re replaced with no questions asked.

The guarantee stands, and Cabot says only 0.001 percent of Darn Tough socks come back. “We’d be idiots if we guaranteed something we didn’t make,” he says. “We look at every pair that comes back, and we learn from what we see.”
And that guy whose dog chewed up his socks? “That’s exactly the guy we want to send a free pair of socks because he’s not really expecting it,” Cabot says. “He’s going to tell his family and friends about his amazing experience, and that’s how our business grows.”

more at link …

http://www.success.com/article/american-comebacks-darn-tough-socks
;)

I have heard Darn Tough socks are really good, if I was going to buy a pair of socks I would likely buy them, nice they make them in USA, but

I find it hard to believe that only 0.001 percent are returned. Socks wear out.

They charge a premium price so they can afford a liberal return policy

ahhh … but remember that most outdoor gear that BPLers talk about are "premium" priced goods …

i understand cottage manufacturers not being able to have liberal policies

but ask yourself why some of the brands that charge $$$$$$$ prices and always claim that their gear and service are the "best" dont back it up explicitly

especially when shops with "common" goods that cater to middle america like EB, Lands end, LL bean, and even costco (except for electronics) can

there companies that back up their talk … and others that just claim theyre the "best"

;)

I have 3 pairs of merino blend Darn Tough ankle socks and so far they are bomb proof. Absolutely no wear at all, despite the fact that I wear the heck out of them and they are my hiking sock so they get dirt, sand, and other abrasives ground into them while hiking. They're discolored from getting dirty but the elastic is still just as good as the first time I wore them and the material has no wear spots at all. No fuzz, no pilling, no loose threads. I love these socks.

That said, if I wear them out I'll BUY more. I consider I got my money's worth out of these.

Any brand, particularly ones that make their own stuff, can guarantee their stuff forever if they want, or not. Northface and Sierra designs used to both have great stuff, and guarantee it for life, now, I don't know what their real guarantee is, but their stuff isn't great, so I assume it's not guaranteed for life, maybe it, who knows, I wouldn't buy it in any case.

I'm surprised bpl members aren't instantly pointed out to one among many factors that make lifetime guarantees on gear non viable for outdoor gear, particularly when selling to relatively non skilled users, as REI does, it's kind of obvious, I was in rei the other day, and looked at their big flash backpack, and, much to my amazement, found it was using straight 70d nylon on the side panels. They also sell various silnylon tents.

The rei that created the lifetime return policy sold generally, if I remember right, 70d tents, and the backpacks were mostly 500d to 1000d cordura. The clothes, jackets etc, were heavier too.

Add in the shameless abuser 'hah, I hiked the AT trail and then returned all my gear' types, and the Max types, and you have a formula for losses.

I applaud rei for this decision, how can anyone guarantee for life a silnylon tent or a 70d paneled backpack? UL gear requires care, and care doesn't come with the purchase price. The use of pertex and other sub 1oz/yd type fabrics too in sleeping bags, jackets, etc, is another piece, plus the overall absurdity of letting people rent gear for free for no reason, particularly for a coop.

Since LL bean has exactly nothing that I want, I don't personally care what they do, but I assume that given they have their gear sewn in china then sold under the llbean brand, that means they cut out the middle man in that process, ie, higher margins, it's not rocket science, but personally I don't care, I've never set foot in one of their store, and certainly wouldn't change that based on what was said here, our dollars are our best votes, so I vote for people I somewhat like and respect, like Lawson, Henry Shires, etc. Besides, rei only has a few things I want, socks, and.. umm, well, they have socks. Not icebreaker though.

I hope nobody's accusing ME of complaining about REI's return policy change. I've never actually used it… ever.

I own three pairs of Darn Tough socks. My oldest ones are going on two years now. I don't intend to send any of them back. I'm not worried about it- I've lost one pair, too. The others will be lost long before they're ready for a repair.

But yeah, top notch.

Harald,
What's the "Max" type?

I think everyone's kind of missing the point. Look a little bigger than your own closet and your opinion of Shopping Cart Guy's return habits.

Which SOUNDS better? One year returns or Lifetime returns?

The point of the lifetime return policy is not actually returns. it's how much word-of-mouth marketing a lifetime policy generates. It's established by 10+ companies that the lifetime returns don't actually affect profits in a significant way. Who can guess at REI's reasons… inability to judge the ephemeral benefits of word of mouth? An unfortunate acronym?

Darn Tough Socks is a perfectly good example of profiting with a guarantee.

If all we have to bring to the table is "I think people who return are bad!" and similar whining, then there oughta be a BPL sub-forum for backpack circlejerking…

Edit: Found more info on why REI might've changed their return policy:

"The outdoor gear retailer posted net income of $29 million in 2012, compared to net income of $30.1 million in 2011. Net sales, meanwhile, increased 7.4 percent to $1.9 billion, from net sales of $1.79 billion in 2011."

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/blog/2013/04/rei-profits-slip-in-2012.html

Darn Tough can have a lifetime guarantee because apparently people aren't climbing Denali or hiking the AT in Darn Tough socks and then returning $1000 dollars worth of socks when they're done. REI, on the other hand, had customers that saw nothing wrong with "borrowing" gear- pay for it, use it (satisfactorily), return when done using it for full refund, buy more gear. Or parents that bought clothes for their kids, returned the clothes when the kids outgrew them and bought a size up, repeat. That's wrong. Not "wrong" with air quotes- just WRONG. Because there really are such things as black and white, and right and wrong. And we're probably still arguing about it because you keep posting new posts. :)

i bet all those scamming middle 'muricans happen at ll bean, EB, and lands end … all of which sell kids clothes

i find its quite weird that people go off about how awful that made in china gear is that these companies sell … and how people need the return policy to deal with the chinese cr@p

if the goods were really cr@p … these companies would be kaput logically

as to he MAX type … its the new BPL stereotype …

;)

darn tough is the exact reason a storewide policy makes no sesne, if you read their article, I think it was quoted here, or linked, they make their own socks, they use the returns to locate areas they can improve. REI is a retailer, they resell other brands, in some cases they stick the rei brand on other brands, but in no case that I am aware of do they make their own stuff. So the returns are meaningless in terms of improving quality etc.

I see max is slowly making his way towards developing some critical thinking skills, albeit reluctantly, but better late than never I guess, and has found the profit statement from REI, which shows fairly clearly what the problem is, ie, they are close to losing money and providing free rentals and lifetime warranties on flimsy gear that can't possibly last a lifetime just do not make sense. I speak as someone whose rei membership card is very very old, older than Max is for sure. But I never did a return that was not justified then either, except I think maybe once or twice to return something in its original packaging that they could restock at no loss.

I'd say in a larger social sense, the average rei customer has also underonge a fundamental change, from someone getting gear for their outdoor stuff, to 'consumers', with all the negatives that implies. It's hard for an old company to realize that people, it's customer base, have in fact changed fundamentally, along with the times, but I suspect that's also part of it. When REI made these policies they sold gear in wooden bins, and it was durable, ie, it was basically a hardware store that sold outdoor gear.

"if the goods were really cr@p … these companies would be kaput logically"

That doesn't logically hold at all, since the premise is totally wrong. In fact, once a brand that was quality decides to pursue the lucrative 'consumer' market, ie, mass sales over hand made quality construction, then the consumers base their purchases on many factors, most of them totally irrational, which is why advertising is a multibillion dollar a year industry.

Factors include: cost, brand, brand emotional connection. Only in weird niche places like candlepower forums, bpl, whiteblaze, etc, do you find people actually analyzing somewhat at times rationally the actual value of the product, the quality, etc, and basing purchasing decisions on that.

So no, northface hasn't been bought repeatedly over the last decades because their corporate owners want to produce better quality, it's because they have turned northface into a world wide brand that you see fleamarkets filled with, ie, they wear the clothing etc because it has the northface brand on it, not because it's good or bad. In fact, I've bought a perfect condition marmot UL rainjacket at fleamarket for $15, but a northface would go far at least 4, maybe 6x more. That's branding. And their stuff is crap, so, logically, marketing works, very well, and is very profitable, but has zero to do with quality.

Re chinese sewers, vietnamese sewers, it all depends on the shop, how pressured they, the sewers, are in terms of pieces per hour, work conditions, lighting, all kinds of stuff. A lot of asian sewers are really good though, once I learned a bit how to myog and sew, I appreciate good sewing more, but I also now see how stuff starts to fray sooner than it should, and that's almost always a function of minimizing the time spent per item, fewer seams, etc, single stitching where doubling would be better. All reasons to buy from real local cottage, who do care, fairly intensely, about their products, and how they are seen by purchasers. So logically, buy local cottage, or very well spec'ed outsourced, but quality control is always a serious b#tch when you outsource, I had a friend who did cottage packs in the 80s and he gave up on outsourcing because it took him longer to do quality control and repairs than he saved in labor. It's not the asian perse that makes made in china bad, it's the ruthless corporate cost cutting that is always pressuring production to lower per unit costs to boost corporate bottom lines, which can translate to simply skipping steps in each seam, boosting seam lengths to avoid start / stop stitching, shortening the start/stop stitch in the first place, to make it 'prettier', etc. I have a tarptent rainbow where the double stitch lines wander a bit, out of parallel, but the seams are really solid and well done, I'll take that Sierra sewer who reports directly to Henry I think, same for the Enlightenment sewers who deliver their stuff right to them.

so youre telling me that those EB, lands end, ll bean goods ARENT cr@p?

if they were youd see mass returns and those companies would be in REAL trouble ….

unless they charged alot more … which they generally dont over their competitors less well endowed with unlimited warranties

;)

There is more to "best" beyond durability. Outdoor consumers want performance, light weight, and durability, sometimes (most of the time?) those things conflict, especially light weight and durable. It is always a balancing act.

My personal experience has been that Lands End and LL Bean have good quality products. Nearly the jeans we buy, plus my DH's dress pants, and most of my casual clothes come from Lands End. Everything I've purchased from LL Bean has been good, also. It's not country of origin that's the problem – if they have good quality control, then the product can be great no matter where it's made.

I never said a word about chinese sewing being crap, first of all, so if you read that into my words, that's something you need to work out on your own.

Lands end stuff is great, I have a few of their jackets, they are indestructable. No idea on their other stuff, just their jackets. However, Landend is not really a 'brand' like Nike or Northface have become, Landsend is actually almost the opposite, it's a company that makes in my experience pretty good stuff at very low cost, almost exactly because they are NOT a brand in the sense of coke or pizzahut. So they seem to spend some cash on production, and not much on marketing, so it's kind of the thinking person's stuff, ie, decent quality for not much money but your kid wont' be happy if you get them their stuff because it's not 'northface' or whatever other junk kids have been brainwashed into thinking is important to own via too much time watching tv.

I can't actually understand what you are talking about to be honest, your words seem to have almost nothing to do with anything I wrote, maybe you are responding to someone else in this thread, or maybe some emotional button in your head got pushed? I can't say.

Every company that outsources has to create a chain of quality control, and they make decisions on how much to pay for the sewing/outsourced production, those decisions will directly impact the quality of their products they sell here. It's the same with computer parts, or anything else.

So you can get top quality outsourced sewing, or you can get cruddy stuff that starts to unravel here and there after very little use. It all depends on how much the originating company cares, and pays. The real problem comes when top levels of the corporation decide to nick off $1 per item in production costs to boost those quarterlies a bit, then that gets addicting and you end up with the type of low end crud northface sells, for example, when before, when they were large cottage, basically, all their stuff was done onsite, and none of it was crud.

so now that weve agreed that lands end, ll bean .. and perhaps EB stuff is generally good

never mind OR which is known for quality service, goods and unlimited warranty

or MEC which makes good gear

ask yourself WHY certain brands charge MUCH more yet guarantee their stuff much less… despite their claims to be the "best"

if you have total and utter confidence in your product …

as to retailers who offer unlimited guarantees …. i can post the article on those 10 selected again …
;)

again, I really have trouble following your thinking here, it's a challenge.

Any company producing products can do whatever they want, ie, they can make great stuff, guaranteed for life, like darn tough socks, or they can make junk, and then sell it at premium prices, to cater to those who know that the more you pay, the better something is. Rei does not produce products, so that's not what this is about.

So that's companies. Then you have a retailer, who has to deal with this variance in quality, yet offer one guarantee. Then you add in super light gear, that wears out fast, and add to that a razor thin profit margin the year they stopped this practice, and there you have it, the answer. Unless of course the answer was not what you were looking for, in that case, it's hard to see what is being discussed. 1 year is a great guarantee by the way, way better than average on computer parts, for example. As with outdoor gear, some computer parts makers offer lifetime (crucial memory, for example, awesome, the darn tough socks of computer ram memory) warranties, others offer 30 days, others 3 months, some 5 year or 10 year, but you pay big bucks for those brands, server type stuff.

REI made the right decision, I am a long time COOP member, and I applaud them. While I know I have been an REI member longer than max has been alive, I may also have been one longer than you, eric, though I have a hard time pinning down your age in my mind, maybe you were a small kid when I first became a member, it's hard to say. Luckily for rei, their decision did not depend on the outcome of threads like this, lol.

Since I never ever abused their return policy, their return policy change will have exactly zero impact on any rei gear purchase decision I will make in the future, although I do like getting those very little rebate checks, which, conveniently, generally are just about enough for me to buy, you guessed it, some socks. Or maybe a tent stake or two. Or some trekking pole tips. Given that nobody who never abused their return policy will change their behavior re buying from them, that suggests even better strategy on rei's part, they may drop that tiny niche of people who bought from them precisely so they could abuse the return policy, and that's a good riddance I'd say for any company.

you know that MEC sells some of the very goods you are talking about including 70D sil packs, UL windshirts, and the gear of many other manufacturers

everything they sell is guaranteed by a no questions asked warranty …

Like many retailers, we guarantee our products; if an item hasn't met your expectations, you can bring it back. Unlike most retailers, we also guarantee the product selection advice offered through our website and staff; if an item you've purchased based on this advice turns out to be unsuitable, you can bring it back. In either case, simply return the item for exchange, refund, repair, or credit.

plenty of retailers have stellar no questions asked warranties

;)

Harald,

I don't know why your loquacious and knowledgeable posts need to be riddled with insults to my character, and eric's… I enjoy reading them, but it's hard to focus on the text whilst rolling my eyes at your needless bickering ;)

You might be many decades older, but I don't envy the attitude you have about it. I'm perfectly happy with fresh knees, strong ankles, and an open mind.

"You might be many decades older, but I don't envy the attitude you have about it. I'm perfectly happy with fresh knees, strong ankles, and an open mind."

And, evidently, your smug disposition… :)

I'm not understanding how Harald is being insulting. He IS getting frustrated that people are still b!tching about basic realities of outsourced manufacturing, which I can understand. But if you find it insulting that he has no patience for the abusers who are now complaining about REIs policy change, well, that says more about you than him. (Yes, I read your post about how you never abused REIs policy- don't get defensive again. But you do sure seem damned "open minded" of some very reprehensible behaviors.)

Ah, but there's the difference. You and Harald seem to cling to your cause with the desperation of drowning men. You writhe and moan, trying to make myself and others align with your battle against of your perceived oppression. You seem to me to have a bottomless investment in guilt, mockery, debasement, and a constant chorus of "I'm older/wiser!" to the tune of making yourself appear as one of the good ones to people who already share your view. The circlejerk metaphor comes to mind again.

Meanwhile, I've given up on you. I'll listen, sure, but I'm not even going to try to break down a wall built on immaturity, decades of social contract, and the stubborn veil of thinking you know the world.

I don't claim to know every circumstance of every return you deem abusive, nor do I seek it, because I've got better things to do, Dean. I've got backpacking to do. I don't CARE about what you or Joe Somebody does with their time, gear, or money. I'd rather be productive. This diatribe about what "side" i'm on over -Ha!- retail policy?! It's over.

Yes, I read your post about how you never abused REIs policy- don't get defensive again. But you do sure seem damned "open minded" of some very reprehensible behaviors.

"reprehensible" …

i mean there are attacks on a mall in kenya, people getting gassed in syria, killings in the states, kid loving monsters running around, the guvmint spying an mass on its own citizens, ceos saying that complaining about their bonuses is like mass lynchings in the south, a japanese power company that denies their reactor is coming apart, haliburton destroying their gulf oil spill evidence and BP trying to get out of paying their settlement as well …

and were bashing poor MAX about being open minded on some "reprehensible" behavior over some REI return he never did??????

god i LUUUV BPLers "morality" …

all it needs is to be slightly changed for it to be a true political statement

– Yes, I read your post about (sexual orientation, guns, global warming, race, cute dogs) – don't get defensive again. But you do sure seem damned "open minded" of some very reprehensible behaviors.

;)

@Max-

Well, again, hypocrisy. Not that hypocrisy is inherently bad or anything… But you're getting all huffy and calling everyone ELSE immature and stubborn? Really? I merely have an opinion contrary to yours and that apparently offends you. If you make a rational argument that it is OK to abuse return policies I will listen to it, and you may sway me. It has happened before. But have I called you any names? (Well, "smug" I guess, but I'll stand by that one- what you wrote sounded very smug, but I'll grant that internet communications is fraught with misunderstanding. Thus my smilie to imply that I wasn't sure you were saying what you meant.) Otherwise I think the closest I've come is condemning the abuse of liberal return policies and thus by implication those who do so or condone those who do so. Yes, that's a value judgment.

You seem incredibly concerned about being PC or something. But Brother, sometimes you just have to have an opinion. It's OK to have an opinion. Well, as long as it is internally consistent. "Judging people is wrong" is not internally consistent, since it is itself a judgment. I don't go around pointing fingers all day, but I'm willing to commit to an opinion once in a while. I'll go out on a limb and for instance say stuff like "stoning women to death for adultery when they are raped is wrong." I'm willing to bet that you agree with THAT one. Well, that's a judgment, so if you do agree with that then you don't actually have a problem with "judging" people. And thus there would be a line *somewhere* that you are willing to start judging. That line is different than mine. Surprise!- I'm OK with that. Clearly you are not, repeated pointing out how nonjudgmental you are. Who is acting desperate, here? That last post was one hell of a bit of ankle-biting and name-calling.

I'm only engaging you because I feel that what I interpret as one of your base positions- that making any sort of judgment upon another is somehow wrong- to be ridiculous. So, if you persist in espousing it I will pop up now and again and point out how ridiculous it seems to me. I'm not emotionally invested in it or anything, which is what you seem to be.

That's a CONVERSATION. Why get defensive and snippy?

If you were to say something like "I think that you are being too judgmental ON THIS ISSUE because X", I might take that more seriously, and I'd judge X on it's merits, and let you know if a disagreed (likely) or not. Hint- we're talking about generalities, so weird hypothetical individual cases like some guy trying to finance his wife's chemotherapy are not good arguments.

@Eric-

That's a logical fallacy. Just because worse wrongs are committed in the world does not make it not wrong to abuse the return policies. (E.g. just because millions died in Rwanda does not mean that I can shoplift.) If you want to discuss genocide, Syria, etc., you should take it to another thread.

And I think that "reprehensible" was a good SAT word. It's not like I was saying that the Hague should step in or anything.

And I have to admit to being lost on the "sexual orientation, guns, global warming, race, cute dogs" comment. I've commented on guns once in a while, and I STARTED the Carbon Flame War thread, but the rest is a puzzle. Enlighten me. If all you are trying to say is that we could all be using our time more productively then I'm not going to argue. :)

I don't care if you judge or not. I also don't claim that judging (by definition of the word) is wrong. You keep tearing the word apart from the dictionary definition like that's useful in any way. You're not proving anything. Yes, I guess when I look in my toaster and decide my english muffin is done, I'm judging. Who cares?

You're ignorant to my entire point, which is that you, Dean, and myself, and everyone else in this forum can't really say that a certain group of people are, to quote you, "reprehensible" people based on something as ill-defining as a RETURN AT AN REI. God, if I was going to face my maker on whether or not my item was reasonably within an arbitrary measure of new-ness, I'd be pretty appalled.

I am not my returns. Nobody's morality hinges on a return. Get off our collective backs!

What a stupid cause… I'm now definitely judging you as cranky old men.