New Down Quilt from Sierra Designs with built in hood and hand pockets

Looked at the SD site for tents.
When will the new tents be posted?
Thanks.

I get just about everything I can from the cottage gear maker. I stopped getting Backpacker a few years back since they don not cover much that is relative to those with experience or those who are truly UL, or looking for functional high quality gear. As you pointed out, most of it just sucks. I have several Hammockgear quilts (under and over) and they are great, plus Adam has retro improved items for me at no cost. The designs are simple and practical and I deal with good folks, with great personal service, and I can support someone here in central Ohio. That is just one example, I could go on and on (hammocks, backpacks, cuben tarps, etc.). To me it is clear that the folks at Gossamer Gear actually use the backpacks they design as compared to a UL commercial product like Golite, not that they do not all have there place.

It is good to hear of the new direction of SD, hope it works out for you. Your new tent looks like some cottage gear makers (see Tarptent) designs we have seen for years, but nice to see it making it mainstream I suppose. The quilt looks a bit gimmicky to me, most here want practical and no frills. The hand pockets just do not make sense to me at all, you can't grab a regular quilt and move around with it? What quilts have you tested that are too small to do this? I can get the Hammockgear and other cottage makers to make it whatever specs I want for minimal charge, I have never had a problem moving around with my quilt as opposed to a bag (which is why I use a quilt) and as for a hood, why? the reason most of us do not like them is that they are confining and are always there, I like to be able to wear a fleece, down, both or none at all, the hood takes that versatility away from me.

The backpacking quilt should be like the quilt at home and move with you, with no pockets or hood IMO. I can also see hands getting a bit too sweaty in those pockets. Anyway, nice to see what is going on at SD, keep sharpening the pencil, I doubt many that use Cottage makers will switch, but the newbs and others out there reading the Backpacker gear guide in March may be the better for it.

After rereading your post with specs, I am assuming your en rating is lower extreme and not the comfort rating, am I right? Also just a few more observations, particularly how they relate to the UL crowd. If I compare my HG Burrow 20 quilt with the SD one, this is what I find: SD is 24 oz, HG is 17.3, 6 oz difference, HG has 12 oz down in an Argon shell (1 oz more) and is rated to what I consider a conservative 20 degrees, with a price of $263. So that is a 28% weight savings for a warmer bag?

The shelter could be similarly compared to the TT Scarp, SMD Lunar Duo, etc.

I guess my question is who is your clientele? Are you going after what you perceive as a gap between the commercial and the cottage gear maker? What I am seeing is something in the middle. You are never going to sell a heavier, same price or more expensive item to the UL crowd, and most newbs are going to stick with the straight forward sleeping bag, tent, pack, etc. when they first start out? People seek out UL, they don't go to REI to find it at least not in my experience, we only shop there for sporks.

I think it is great to see a different approach to it all, I just don't quite get your market segment? Those truly looking for UL gear will find it and you will still always be a quite a bit behind the cottage gear makers, right? I mean you are saying this is coming out in 2014, HG switched to the lighter Argon fabric with one quick announcement on the HG forums, by 2014, there will most likely be something lighter still and you will be looking at fabrics like Argon for 2016.

Looks like a walrus or MSR Zoid, might be interesting

Those would drive me nuts. Like sleeping with mittens on.

So all the two person tents will only have a single door?

nm

Hi All:

*New tents will be posted on the site in January when the 2014 models arrive for delivery.

*For those wanting the inside scoop sooner, I posed the relevant pages of the workbook on a new sierra designs page at zenbivy.com Note: I crossed out the wholesale price, which is what retailers pay before any discounts we give them. For some insight into the corporate greed, we charge the retailer about half of the retail price, so I am selling them a $300 tent for a smidge over $150.

*only one of our 2 person tents has a single door. The Flashlight, our lightest tent, has two doors. When I was talking about a single door, I was referring to getting in and out of the tent. Tents with vestibules require you to open and close 2 doors, plus crawl over your gear, plus they crush ventilation. Vestibules, IMO, are just about the worst thing you can do to a 3S tent. The first vestibule was done by TNF when they converted the venerable VE24 to the VE25. They were used to eliminate snow tunnels, so that a person could get into a vestibule, then shut the inner tent before opening the next door. Sort of a storm chamber that eliminated shimming through a storm tunnel in bad weather. Then people figured out you could cook and store there, and most tents have been ruined following this model ever since. Gear stored in the door is not smart. Two doors on a 3S tent is not smart. Killing ventilation on 3S tents is not smart. Vestibules do all these things, which is why you won't find any on SD tents anymore.

*The new flashlight is reminiscent of the Zoid (I used to be the S&M Director at MSR, and I was the one who started MSR tents from the remains of Moss and Walrus. Unlike the Zoid, the front poles are vertical, and can be replaced with trekking poles. Plus, there is no vestibule blocking the door and hindering ventilation, the gear storage is moved away from the door, and the door creates a huge vent that you can open in bad weather, and a nice window that you can always see out of. I live in the Northwest, and nearly every shelter on the market (except for the MSR Missing Link/Faststash) require you to close the tent up in bad weather. In most cases, you can't even get in and out without water coming into the tent interior. To be truly comfortable, a tent has to both vent in worst case conditions, and you MUST be able to see outside in poor weather, so you avoid that cooped up feeling, and you MUST be able to cook. ALL SD tents allow all three, because the door is no longer a door, it is a wall that can be height customized (drop door can be zipped up part way to block lower wind, but still get over it to cook (and see), it is a HUGE vent (really the best part, which allows us to get away from double walls and use it like a real tarp. The key is the awning over the door. When I named the Missing Link in 2002, that is what saw. Most people saw a funky ugly trekking pole single wall freak show (which is was), I saw the future: awnings over doorways fundamentally redefine the experience. Every SD tent is descendant from the MSR Missing Link, the shelter I use in most conditions to this day. We even have mostly double wall (they are all exoskeleton/hybrids) freestanding versions, but they all have awnings and drop doors, and are dramatically more livable as a result. Think about it: isn't this freedom why most of us love tarps? Is it really all about weight?

*I will do a quick video of the Flashlight 2 and post it to the SD page on zenbivy.com; I'll try to do it today but priority is to get off this computer and outside before the rain comes this afternoon….

*EN ratings are not in the workbook, since they were still being tested at print. But yes, the 28 degree number is the Limit (not extreme, that is something else), the comfort rating is 38 degrees.

*Regarding Lance's questions comparing the SD quilt to the HG Burrow 20. I am not familiar with that bag, but I can tell you there is no rocket science to the weight of any of these bags. Ounces of down (given the same fill power) is probably your best comparison tool for judging relative warmth of bags that are not EN rated. Beyond that, weight is a simple factor of size and material weight. So, though I admit I have no idea, I doubt that bag would rate at 20 degrees on the EN test (In fact I know it wouldn't, since it does not insulate the head, but just speaking relatively). But with super high fill power down, and an uber light shell, it is certainly conceivable.

*Lance: you nailed it: "Are you going after what you perceive as a gap between the commercial and the cottage gear maker? What I am seeing is something in the middle." I even have this funky chart in my business plan that shows the "gap" you refer to, with the following caption:

"In general, our competitors are not providing much that is very interesting. Since our objective is to produce products that fundamentally change the customer dialogue so that we change the state of the marketplace, in total defiance of anything that could be considered status quo, it is pointless to review them in detail.

Competitively, all the “big brands” are nicely piled on top of one another, each fighting for the same space using the same “aspirational” marketing model. Meanwhile, when it comes to Sierra Design’s core activities of backpacking and hiking, the big brands are doing nothing innovative. As a result, many of the enthusiast level backpacking and hiking customers have deserted the traditional outdoor marketplace, and a small but dedicated cottage industry has grown to fulfill the need created by simply being ignored by the big brands.

And there exists a void, a white space, and a key opportunity for Sierra Designs."

Then I have a big arrow that shows are vision of customers moving from the traditional toward the dedicated enthusiast. As has been stated in this thread over and over, there is not much that Sierra Designs can bring to the enthusiast crowd that you are not already getting (but there is some). Our real mission is to provide real ways to turn casual backpackers into dedicated backpackers, by making the experience light and comfortable. Right now, if you want to go backpacking, and you walk in to an REI, what you walk out with is generally crap that is both heavy AND uncomfortable. But that is what people do all the time, and I hate it, because many people who have that experience simply stop participating, which is a shame. More backpackers means more emphasis on resource protection, and more people who share our passion for the wild places. If I have my way, Sierra Designs will actually GROW the cottage industry by introducing more people to new and better thinking.

I showed this slide to the buyer of a major retailer, and no kidding, the buyer said "what is this cottage industry you are talking about?" He had no clue that you guys even existed, or that people were so passionate about backpacking.

Now, some of you may not want the average Joe to become more involved in backpacking. For me, just about the last thing I want to see on my trips is another backpacker. But I think that more backpackers is a good thing, because more backpackers means more voices, and hopefully more protected wild places for us to wander. Readers of this forum may need to wander farther to obtain solitude, but keep making those packs lighter and you can do just that!

Thank you for your response.

Thanks for the reply. I can see where you are going now, I hope there is indeed a market for SD in that gap, somewhere between where we are and the commercial companies, if you get these new lines in the big box stores, maybe the newb can start out a "E" and then get to "H" from there, rather than starting at "A" like most of us did. I can remember hauling some heavy, not so functional packs with heavy underrated gear as most others have experienced.

I think the en ratings are a good idea, just not always apples to apples. For the adventurer that caries a down hood, fleece hood, or balaclava, and wants to use that there is no real answer to "no hood" I do know my HG products are 900 fill and way warm. If you are interested head over to Hammockforums.net there are a ton of do it yourselfers and cottage gear makers making some really forward thinking, quilts, hammocks, tarps, etc.

Most of us who have been at it a while can look at the loft and cut of the bag and tell how warm it is…just lay a Western Mountaineering 20 bag next to NF Cat's Meow and it is obvious someone is fibbing about temp rating.

Thanks for your input and best of luck with your new product launch, good to see someone cares about the consumer and product.

Michael,
Forgive me. I did read all your earlier posts, but had to stop here.
You probably personify the comment I posted recently suggesting that the larger tent makers, before they make any new tents, should be required to spend a month every summer trekking in the Pacific NW, with only their own tents for shelter I would add.

The posts identifying the new SD tent with older designs hit the nail on the head.

For innovation, look at the tents designed and built by two of our Scottish posters on MYOG. Only experience trekking will provide the knowledge required to move tentmaking forward. The rest is fluff. We can always use less of that.

I could not find the Sierra Designs link on zenbivy.com on my IPhone. So, I went to my desktop to find your 2014 workbook and on the homepage between Family and About was the link Sierra Designs. FYI for all you mobel users. Thanks Michael for the workbook!
Ammon

I see you use a pyramid.

A "half pyramid" would be good for solo. No one makes it so you have to make it yourself.

Basically, just take one half of the floor area of a pyramid to sleep in. Then make the other half a triangle floor rather than rectangle and it weighs a little less. Some room to put gear and get in and out. You can leave door open for better ventilation if it's not windy/rainy.

"Vestibules, IMO, are just about the worst thing you can do to a 3S tent."

Hi Michael,

I'm curious if you can elaborate on this.

I still remember when TNF dropped the snow tunnels for the vestibule(s) in the VE series, which may have been a useful thing for 4s tents. But I'm not sure I understand why having a vestibule vs awning creates such a difference in ventilation. A "good" vestibule can remain open when it rains, and still provide ventilation. It seems to me that "cross ventilation" is still crucial no matter what, vestibule or otherwise. I also appreciate the vestibule where I can take off my rain gear without getting the inside of the tent wet. Of course a BIG awning can do this as well.

Like our houses, some like their porches & porticos, and some like their vestibules.

Matt

And to think I'd been not reading this thread for over a week in no small part because it had "Sierra Designs" in the title.

Michael, I wish you the best. The company name has a lot of history behind it. It'd be nice to see that done credit to.

All:

I made a video of the new flashlight 2 can be viewed on the SD page at zenbivy.com, or more specifically: http://www.zenbivy.com/ZenBivy/Sierra_Designs.html

Matt: regarding vestibules, here are my issues:

1. Vestibules place gear in the doorway, where you have to crawl open it to get in and out of the tent
2. You have to open two doors every time you want to get in or out
3. Generally, they inhibit ventilation when deployed for poor weather. It is true that some vestibules do allow you to keep them open in the rain, with an otherwise positive drip line, but this is almost never the case.
4. When closed for weather protection, ventilation is USUALLY reduced dramatically, and I can't think of a single design that allows you to continue to look outside and enjoy the views, regardless of weather. I have hiked a LOT in the rain, and being cooped up in a steamy tent without air or a window is not fun, especially when you can have all this while going even lighter.
5. You can absolutely use the doorway of a awning/door combo to transition from wet hiking to dry camping. In fact it is one of the main benefits. I demonstrate this on one of my blog entries in a video called "Glavin boot camp" that I sometimes use to convince folks that going a little lighter can be way more comfortable. The drop door is used to sit down inside the tent, while sitting on the OUTSIDE of the tent wall. Then, out of the rain, you can make your transition. Of course, there are other ways to accomplish this, but we at SD believe the awning/drop door/separate gear storage is the lightest and most elegant. The link is below and you can scan to about 11 minutes in the video to see this.

http://www.zenbivy.com/ZenBivy/Blog/Entries/2013/4/14_Glavin_Boot_Camp_1.html

Love that Moss tent in your photo…..!

The only thing bad about that tent, is the overhanging roof will catch the wind. Better to have all sides staked to the ground and smoothly go up to the peak or ridge.

That's sort of like a Whelen lean to.

I made something like that and it blew around a lot.

Not that it won't work – I'm sure you've tested it a lot in the wind – maybe the benefit of an overhang to keep dry while getting in makes up for any tendancy to blow around more, always design trade-offs

In reference to the new Flashlight tent:

"It could probably be 2lbs 5, but for now the lightest is 30d with PU coating and 40d floors, taped."

Michael,
I have to say, a 2lb 5oz Flashlight tent seems moderately intriguing to me, but a 2lb 15oz (3lb 5oz with poles?) version seems completely pedestrian.

I just don't see buying a new Flashlight over a Six Moon Designs Lunar Duo (2lb 9oz) or a TarpTent Double Rainbow (2lb 9oz) when both of those shelters are lighter, and (I'm guessing) cheaper, not to mention trail-tested.

So I'm wondering why Sierra Designs won't pull the trigger on a 2lb 5oz version of this tent? Is there some supply, construction, or design constraint that is keeping you all from making a lighter version?

My feeling is that if you all at Sierra Designs are really trying to shake things up in the "mainstream" outdoor industry, then you might as well go all the way.

Of course, that's just my two cents. I hope you guys do succeed in your business makeover. The "ultralight" shelters that the mainstream outdoor industry has been churning out are an embarrassment to the UL moniker.

Jerry:

Its counter-intuitive, but awnings on tents make them considerably STRONGER in the wind. The wind blows the tent up, not down. The Sierra Designs Hercules is the only tent to ever wind tunnel test over 100mph at sea level, and it utilized awnings to create vertical support for the shelter.

Every SD tent for 2013 has been wind tunnel tested to 30 MPH steady wind at sea level on all aspects. I believe that we are the first company to ever test in the wind this rigorously. All the tents perform better with the awnings into the wind.

Derek:

I agree, we should go all the way. The one constraint that keeps us from pulling the trigger is CPAI-84, which is a standard required in several states relating to the fire resistance of the fabrics. Based on their web specs, neither of the tents you mention pass the standard, and are thus illegal to sell in states that have adopted CPAI-84. Because the cottage industry generally does not work through retailers, they are able to fly under the radar (even though most are breaking the law when they ship to adopted states, probably unknowingly in most cases). The standard is really frustrating.

The urethane coating on tents is generally what allows the fabrics to test. They also allow the tents to be factory seam taped. But as you know, urethane adds weight, and decreases the durability of the fabric. If you look at some of the bivy pictures on my website, you will see a lot of pics of my MSR Missing Link that was made in 30d sil nylon, and hand seam taped. It saved about half a pound vs. the production version with 30 sil/PU 1500mm. Half a pound of urethane and seam tape!

"Every SD tent for 2013 has been wind tunnel tested to 30 MPH steady wind at sea level on all aspects."

That's not much wind at all.

"I believe that we are the first company to ever test in the wind this rigorously."

Hilleberg? Look here. http://hilleberg.se/product-testing-wind-machine

"All the tents perform better with the awnings into the wind."

But my stuff will still get soaked with dew/fog not being closed up in a tent.

This is the spirit of investigating what the people on the ground are saying and asking for. I hope we have some more innovations out of SD and look forward to seeing their new products. Please feel free to post links to reviews here. The cottage industries will thrive if big companies help grow this sport / hobby a bit.

I like this design. I start out sleeping on my back contemplating the day and then flip on my side to sleep and then flip to the other side and then flip and then flip….etc etc. Having those corner mitts to help snuggle in and hold my arms in place sounds like a nice innovation though I'm not sure they need to be quilted pockets.

The hood is also quite nice. I love my naps. At home and in the mountains. My naps are always on my back with something to cover my eyes.

Thanks to BPL I went to quilts and will never go back to claustrophobic sleeping bags that's for sure and I think this hybrid quilt has its place. I'm sure some myog peeps that don't like 'the man' are busy figuring out how they are going to add corner pockets to their quilts.

Since I like the idea I guess I have to say I have no affiliation with Sierra Designs.

Question: Will the quilt stuff into the hood pocket?

"Its counter-intuitive, but awnings on tents make them considerably STRONGER in the wind."

Interesting. I would think it would be better to have the wind deflected around the tent. I can see how with the awning it would blow the tent up if it was blowing into that side. You'de want good tent stakes : )

Wind tunnel testing at 30 MPH seems like a good thing. I usually sleep in more sheltered locations so 30 MPH is probably sufficient. If you were camping on an exposed location like mountaineering then you'de want a stronger tent.

Here in the Ecuadorian highlands I big flapping wall (guy lines or no) inches from your head raining down condensation just wouldn't do. I'd end up putting my head down at the other end.

Michael wrote:
"The one constraint that keeps us from pulling the trigger is CPAI-84, which is a standard required in several states relating to the fire resistance of the fabrics."

I've long thought CPAI-84 helped kill the mainstream lightweight backpacking market that started in the late 1970s and vanished in the late 1980s.

Can be amazing to read the specs of old gear which used much heavier fabrics, etc, compared to today. Back then I used sub two-pound packs (Alpenlite), sub three-pound 2 person tents (Moss), two-pound down sleeping bags (WM), and light running-shoe style hiking footwear (Nike), all purchased through backpacking shops.

National name brand manufacturers work under different constraints from the cottage makers. I hope the new Sierra Designs can fill the gap Michael found.

— Rex