Jul 8, 2013 at 11:42 am #1305126
We are about to introduce a new backpack that features a load responsive articulating frame that in our testing makes it very comfortable with light loads, but also comfortable with heavy expedition weight loads.
I'd like to get some feedback from the lightweight crowd. What do you think? Any specific features you would like to see?
NathanJul 8, 2013 at 11:50 am #2003757
Lots of text with very few pics, and the pics you do have in the gallery are fairly worthless. One of the things I've always liked about Chris Zimmer's site is that his pics really show off his packs.
Some folks are word guys, I'm a visual guy. You can explain something all day long, but I need to see it to understand it – I'm not good at creating the visual in my mind from the text on your page. And without the pics, unless it's a really slow day, I'm probably not going to go to deep into the text.
FWIW.Jul 8, 2013 at 11:52 am #2003759
Thanks Doug. I should have a lot of clean background product photos to upload later this week.Jul 9, 2013 at 11:00 am #2004110
What are your thoughts on the design concept? The frame and integrated compression works very well as a dry bag hauler, and the frame itself is capable of very heavy loads, and it is comfortable at both light and heavy loads.
An integrated summit pack/compression pack is an option in the system.
It may not qualify as ultralight, but it should qualify as lightweight. It is possible to have a 2 lb 5 oz bag hauler, which should appeal to pack rafters, skiers, winter backpackers, or anyone else needing to carry a more than usual load.Jul 9, 2013 at 11:08 am #2004113
@hknewmanLocale: Western US
Great concept as it may compete with the "not quite UL" or the "tried UL-going back to LW" crowds. Just glancing through your website, you definitely have been looking for a solution to what many regular hikers complain about (a little load bearing ability, modularity, etc..). I think the lightweight multicam option can be a hit and slate grey. Website-wise it's not that apparent if your 4400 or 6300 are volume numbers or model numbers (perhaps adding cubic inches, liters, etc.. so one doesn't need to hunt for it).
Add: After going through the website a little more maybe small pictures with details of each of your models when the page identifies a particular model. Your gallery should magnify your packs and their details a bit more IMHO.Jul 9, 2013 at 11:10 am #2004114
Larry De La BriandaisParticipant
@hitechLocale: SF Bay Area
I do not get a clear understanding of what you are producing from the web site. A few illustrations/pictures would probably help. Additionally, an overview that explains what this is without getting into the exact details would also help. The current overview is really just a list of features. The design page contains details about the features, but I don't see anywhere that explains exactly what it is. I can guess, but it needs to be spelled out. Again, pictures and/or illustrations would help here.Jul 9, 2013 at 11:10 am #2004115
@alaskaonedayLocale: Northern CA
I am kind of with Doug on this. I like the concept but would have to see more detailed info (pics, pricing etc) to comment further.Jul 9, 2013 at 11:34 am #2004127
I appreciate the comments. I'll re-work the overview a bit to explain the system better.
I'll have pics up within a week or so. We've been deliberately holding back a bit on that, and pricing hasn't been released yet.Jul 9, 2013 at 11:56 am #2004135
spelt with a tParticipant
@speltLocale: SW/C PA
Not just pictures, but diagrams are needed. If you want to sell this design as a breakthrough, people will need to understand how it works and why it's better. The text doesn't convey that.Jul 9, 2013 at 8:02 pm #2004312
@davecLocale: Crown of the Continent
I agree that the current site is clear as mud. Claiming something as lofty sounding as an articulating frame which carries 100 pounds and isn't a backboard with 10 requires some serious meat as back up.
From a backpacking angle, I've never found the harness pack concept to be worth the bother. In theory the versatility is great, but in practice weight of the load drives frame size which in turn dictates pack size within a certain range. A fixed, integral packbag is lighter and carries better, all things being equal. For hunters I can see the virtue of the Kifaru approach. For backpackers not so much.Jul 9, 2013 at 10:11 pm #2004348
@rossLocale: Beautiful BC
I would like to see the dimensions of frame and bags. ie width, height and circumferences. Individual close up clear pics of hipbelt,frame etc would be helpful.
I have been seriously considering the Stone Glacier Terminus pack for expedition sized loads and would like to get a clearer idea of what you will be offering. Maybe some side by side comparison pics with other well known packs would be helpful. Good luck with your product launch. Its nice to see the weight of the larger sized packs shrinking.Jul 9, 2013 at 11:26 pm #2004365
Didn't see that and got bored and left.Jul 9, 2013 at 11:36 pm #2004367
@kalebcLocale: South West
You need to get some better pictures uploaded.
8oz for a pack lid? That's crazy, here at BPL, our packs weigh 8ozJul 10, 2013 at 4:03 am #2004381
@ktimmLocale: Colorado (SeekOutside)
Thanks for the comments, we understand a need to get better photos which should be done in the next few days. THe feedback will help us get the type of photos needed to show of the functionality the best.
To clear up a couple things it is not just a harness system. It can be a harness style / dry bag system but does not need to be. The compression is built into the frame so you can use it with just a dry bag or pack bag if you like. The compression panels, are a way of adding organization and functionality. For instance I carried in a dry bag with the day pack used as a compression panel last week and then used the day pack to get 3 high 13ers. Another reason for the more adaptable design is the ability to use lighter weigh/ replaceable pack bags / dry bags to save weight.
Regarding the weight carrying capacity , I have had over 125 lbs on it in testing several times. The pack has been fine at those loads and kept weight off my shoulders, however I'm not fine at 125. I can attest that it does not feel like a pack board at lower weights such as 10 or 15 lbs.
An 8 ounce lid with zippers and pockets ? It is what it is. WHile I personally do not even use a lid often, we have had several requests for it.Jul 10, 2013 at 5:16 am #2004384
Looks like the ULA Epic. Definitely need more pictures.
What's the relationship between Paradox and Seek Outside?Jul 10, 2013 at 5:40 am #2004388
Paradox Packs and Seek Outside are sister companies.
I believe you will find some key differences in the Evo and other dry bag hauler type packs. First, the Evo is a bit heavier than it could be to support a load of up to 35-40 lbs. Second, it is much more comfortable at heavier weights than other packs of the ilk that I've tried in the past.
Where our pack shines really is at light loads and at heavy loads. There are many packs already on the market that carry mid-range loads well, but most packs that are good at big loads are too stiff at light loads. The Evo is good at both.
David, I agree with your comments about the advantages of interchangeable pack bags for the most part. We accepted the tradeoff of a small weight gain for the value that multiple pack bags can create. We may very well offer a lighter pack bag in the future with the frame captive to the bag that would save a bit of weight.
I really do appreciate the feedback. I'll be re-working the wording on the site a bit to try and clear things up. I should have product photos up by next week…..starting a business requires balancing competing priorities, and building a light box to take photos has been down the list until now.
NathanJul 10, 2013 at 9:33 pm #2004696
@fluffinreach-comLocale: no. california
not to be a naysayer, but if one is touting reasonable ability in the over +100# realm, they'd better have their ducks jolly well in a row.
when i reach down and grab (with some manhood) that beast by one strap and spin it up and around, if that things tosses a seam the four winds, that would not be good for the company reputation.
product " testing " is not in any manner the equity of "proven over time".
no criticism here , but so far, that +100# stuff is pretty big talk.
and yes, i know, nobody ever claimed "proven over time".
skeptical (really ??? ), but can't wait to see the pics.
peter v.Jul 11, 2013 at 3:09 am #2004719
@andyjarmanLocale: Edge of the World
The USA and Burma are the last two countries on the planet not to use ISO metric. For the other 7 billion people on the planet, can you translate your dimensions into grams and litres please!Jul 11, 2013 at 5:22 am #2004730
I've tested many different packs at those weights, and the Evolution is the most comfortable I've tried. The only thing that will allow us to pass the test of time is – well, time. Not much we can do about that except use good durable materials and craftsmanship.
Another point is that with 100 lb loads I'm a bit of a wimp. I'd rather get into the harness while the pack is on the ground, then roll to all fours, then get to my knees, then stand. I've muscled the pack up and on me but it always seems like I'm on the edge of pulling something.
Your post made me laugh. It's amazing the things you don't think of! I'll add metric units to the list of changes to push out with the new content and pictures.
NathanJul 21, 2013 at 1:30 pm #2008130
I built a lightbox this week and took some photos.
I also uploaded a Configurations Gallery, of pack photos with various components and added the weights and capacity.
I'll be reworking the content in the next few days to try and clear up some of the issues brought up in this thread.
I appreciate all the feedback.
NathanJul 23, 2013 at 7:11 am #2008682
I wanted to ask for some thoughts on the product line we are thinking of offering to start off.
Our system is based off the Evolution frame which includes the frame, encasement, hipbelt, harness, three horizontal compression straps, load shelf and compression panel. It is usable as a dry bag hauler in its' stock configuration.
The question is what pack bags to offer with it.
I know that we will offer the dual drawstring top loader with snow collar. Capacity is 6300 ci / 103 L. This should be a good bag for backpack hunters, winter backpackers, expeditions, etc. This bag would be offered in VX21 and VX33 X-Pac and will have dual water bottle pockets and come with a simple flap top lid.
We want to offer a smaller bag as well, because the 6300 is just massive. I think a 4300 ish rolltop with water bottle pockets makes more sense than a smaller dual drawstring with a snow collar. So this would be a 4300 ci / 70 L rolltop with two water bottle pockets, no top lid, offered in VX21 and VX33 X-Pac, plus we could offer it in a single layer silnylon fabric that would be lighter and likely cheaper.
Thoughts?Jul 23, 2013 at 11:01 am #2008779
@woodenwizardLocale: Greater Mt Tabor
Pics are good. I think some close ups of the Evolution on and off a model would be awesome.
Personally I'd be really interested in just the frame and cloth shelf so I can just carry stuff however I need to. Honestly I'd like to see a sil flap attached to the top of the frame. It covers your gear while hiking- then when you take your pack off off you can flip it over and protect your harness from the wet/ dirty ground. But a light frame with compression is what I'd be interested in. Those packs are sweet but big and burly for the weenie hiking I do.Jul 24, 2013 at 6:32 am #2008989
I'll be doing pics and video for the next several months I'm afraid. Someone stated earlier that that different people relate to different things. Some want to read technical specs and design philosophy, some want cool photos and visual media….we will try to get enough good content that everyone can find something they like.
We will sell the frame with the integrated compression as an option. It is very functional that way as a dry bag hauler, or you can use a cuben stuff sack.
Any more feedback on pack bags? Does a smaller rolltop in X-Pac and sil with water bottle pockets, ice axe loops, and two over the top straps make sense?Jul 24, 2013 at 8:06 am #2009010
@davecLocale: Crown of the Continent
Nathan, those pictures are very illustrative, and the claimed weights are all the more impressive seeing how much webbing is presumably included.
I think your analysis with the packbags is right on. 70 liters would be a good sweet spot for what non-hunters will use this sort of thing for (expeditions, family trips, winter, packrafting, etc). VX21 and 33 are good compromises of weight and durability for the majority of users, and beat out Cordura in almost every respect.Jul 24, 2013 at 9:52 pm #2009257
@rossLocale: Beautiful BC
A lightweight version of the Talon Day would be nice. ie a 800-1000 ci pocket with a single vertical waterproof zip, no shoulder straps and perhaps a lighter material than that of the main bag. In other words a very light detachable capacity booster.
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