2013 Spring Patagonia Houdini Pants / Jacket

Richard,

Have you tested the breathability of the MH Ghost Whisperer windshirt?

http://www.mountainhardwear.com/Men's-Ghost-Whisperer%E2%84%A2-Anorak/OM4625,default,pd.html

The size medium I got in the mail the other day weighs in at a scant 48 g (1.69 oz). I've yet to find a windshirt lighter than this one, but I haven't yet hiked in it so I can speak to its breathability. I think it is made from 7D nylon.

David,

I haven't tested the breathability of this wind shirt but I know it is less than 10 CFM.

The Whisperer 7Dx10D rip-stop nylon is used for both the MH wind-shirt and down jacket. In order for a jacket fabric to be considered down-proof, the fabric has to be less than 10 CFM.

Just received my 2013 Houdini. I'll be hiking out to my local WMA this weekend and had planned on taking the new, black Houdini (Large, slimmer fit for running) and my 2012 blue Houdini (XL, a bit larger for 3-4 season layering) for a side by side test. The two fabrics look similar enough, but the new has a crinkly-paper-almost-like-my- spin-tarp feel. The 2012, more smooth-silk texture. These are just my first impressions. I will have plenty of drizzle and humidity coming up in the next few days.
Have a great weekend!

David:

I found the Ghost Whisperer to be a poor choice for a windshirt for aerobic activities:

See here:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=65418

In order for a jacket fabric to be considered down-proof, the fabric has to be less than 10 CFM.

Richard, I find that incredibly useful to know, thanks!

That would make TiGoat's 10D Nobul-1 (just barely down-proof) probably around 10CFM then.

I was at a Patagonia store today and breath tested the new Houdini. Definitely NOT the same Houdini. It's on par with the Ghost Whisperer – slightly less breathable than Pertex Quantum. Bummer :(

Unless you can locate one of these older Houdinis, I feel most UL hikers would be better off with saving the weight and just going with a rain jacket. Though perhaps some biking or running jackets would work.

Brian,

That's bad news about the Whisperer. Wearing it around the house, I can see what you mean by it being not breathable. The question is: Would this piece be useful to me at all? My current rain jacket is a Marmot Mica, which claims a breathability of 20,000 gr (not sure exactly what that means). So would I be better off ditching the windshirt and just using the rainjacket as my windshell?

Possibly. Depends on how you use a windshirt. I use a windshirt when there's wind and I'm above treeline. My Montane Lite-Speed (Pertex Microlight ~= Pertex Quantum) would sometimes be too warm whenever the wind died down. The Stoic Wraith (similar to the old Houdini) has a much more usable range. What I like about windshirts is that you don't have to mess with ventilating them or taking them on/off. I can usually put them on as soon as I feel a slight chill above treeline, and they stay on through the uphill and any following descent. With the Montane Speed-Lite, I couldn't easily do this, I had to more actively ventilate, sometimes fussing with taking it on and off. I found that a rain jacket was pretty similar in this respect (it's what I used before I knew about windshirts). So, for myself, I'd ditch the lesser-breathable windshirts and just bring a rain jacket.

Brian,

Can you explain the difference between CFM and the rating that Marmot uses for their Membrain technology (gm2?)? They claim 20,000 g / m2 / day, I think. Curious what this would be in CFM.

del

Does anybody know how the CFM of the Montbell Tachyon compares to the old/new Houdini and Pertex Quantum?
I love the Tachyon for my conditions and have been wearing it like crazy. Just curious to know how it compares, and it might be a good alternative for those seeking an alternative to the Houdini. It's certainly light and tough enough, but I think it might be slightly less breathable than the old Houdini?

Compared to the Tachyon, the old Houdini was significantly more breathable. The new Houdini is similar, and so is Pertex Quantum.

The difference being, the old Houdini strove to be highly wind RESISTANT. The others strive to be wind-PROOF. There is a huge difference between the two fabrics in terms of breathability (about 10x as breathable per Richard's CFM numbers).

See here:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=65418

Most rain jackets are ~0 CFM (including your Marmot).

> AFAIK, even the least "breathable" windbreaker fabric is still ~5x more "breathable" than the most "breathable" waterproof membrane fabric.

eVent is around 1 CFM. Neoshell is more. I'd rather bring one of those than a lightweight rain jacket AND the lesser breathable windshirts, even if it'd be another ounce or two more. One less item to bring and manage.

> But again, we wear clothing not fabric swatches.

True, but my experience wearing both the Montane Speed-Lite (Pertex) and the Stoic Wraith over a couple seasons, each, shows that the 10x higher breathability of the Stoic Wraith makes a HUGE difference in comfort and usability.

> Maybe the new Houdini is not the ideal or most efficient, but
> with a full zip I can't imagine anyone not being able to
> thermoregulate in just about any scenario. Heck, most of the
> time I wear my Houdini zipped only to my navel!

You can do the same with a rain jacket. I've found the highly breathable windshirts to operate at a completely different level than rain jackets. I could wear them in infinitely more situations and didn't have to mess with ventilation very often (i.e. zippers, pulling up sleeves, etc.). The lesser breathable windshirts weren't as versatile. I found that I could use a rain jacket pretty much the same as a lesser breathable windshirt, so it made no sense to bring both.

If I remember correctly, the Arc'Teryx Squamish was considered a highly breathable windshirt. I haven't had my hands on one before, but it might be a suitable replacement for the old Houdini. A wind vest might be another option, as well. I'd like to test some of the running/cycling windshirt fabrics as well. I can imagine there's a few good ones out there.

The Arcteryx fabric that had exceptionally high breathability (101 CFM) was Gossamera. It was available from 2007 – 2008 uncoated (according to the Arcteryx Shop Manuals). They have coated the Gossamera fabric with an air permeable PU since 2009 and they list the breathability as 7 CFM for the coated version.

Jackuchu,

I have not tested a Montbell Tachyon but, I have tested the SAME APPARENT Montbell 7 denier ballistic rip stop used in their EX Light. It tested 9.72 CFM.

"They have coated the Gossamera fabric with an air permeable PU since 2010 and they list the breathability as 7 CFM for the coated version."

They also no longer use the Gossamera fabric in the Squamish line. The fabric is now Luminera.

For those looking for more breathability than the Squamish, check out the incendo line. I use them for running. Trimmer fit than the Squamish. Mesh panels aid breathability. The vest has a full mesh back, in fact. I really like wind vests for running. The Squamish makes more sense for hiking and layering over other layers.

Thanks Richard, for doing this work. Do you have a website where some of this information is stored? I would love to read a chart that compares various jackets showing number for CFM, HH and weight. Better yet, it would be nice if Backpacking Light did this. Unfortunately, it looks like they would have to do it every year, as they seem to change without warning. I think it is crazy to see how often the makers change their jackets without changing the name. It is getting be to like car models ("a '70 Firebird is nice, but I like the lines on a '69 better…).

Both rain jackets and wind shirts provide a certain amount of water, wind and bug resistance. So far as I know, all of them work as a mosquito barrier. As stated elsewhere, there is a direct inverse relationship between a garments wind resistance and breathability. The more breathable, the less wind resistant, and vice versa. Given that, I can understand why companies sometimes make their wind shirts more wind resistant and more waterproof. Many of them sell them as the one shirt you need (for all of the elements). I personally wouldn't trust any wind shirt as my only rain garment (for backpacking), but I do appreciate the value. For me, I will always take a rain jacket.

Given that, I want my windshirt to be on the other end of the spectrum. I can always throw on my rain jacket (which is not as breathable) if things get really windy. But if I want an extremely breathable layer for bug protection, or mild wind, then it is nice to have that option. This is why it is frustrating when makers decide to change a garment that served that purpose so well.

Gossamera is still produced and they still use it for the face fabric of jackets like the Atom SV Hoody.

I totally agree with Ross. I want my windshirt highly breathable and wind resistant, not windproof.

> They also no longer use the Gossamera fabric in the
> Squamish line. The fabric is now Luminera.

Looking at their website, it looks like the Luminera fabric also has the PU coating. :(

From the Arcteryx Q&A page (by an Arc rep.):

"The Luminara and Gossamera fabrics are basically two different versions of the same thing. Luminara using a 20 denier filament while Gossamera was woven with a 30 denier filament. Aside from the filament weight the fabrics are the same."

And it does sound like their is an air permeable PU coating used from some of the other info on the page.

The Luminera fabric in the Arcteryx wind shells appears to be middle of the road in terms of breathability according to my breathe through tests (not scientific).

I found it significantly better than the MH Ghost Whisperer and a GoLite wind vest I have, but found the Pertex Equilibrium in a Westcomb Crest hoody to be dramatically better than anything else I own. A MontBell 7D fabric felt a little better than the Luminera.

I found Gore WindStopper to be about impossible to breathe through.

I also found all of my rain shells to be impossible to breathe through, including GoreTex, eVent, Salomon's ClimaPro, 3L WPB Cuben, and TNF HyVent.

That westcomb jacket really impressed me compared to the rest. I don't own a Houdini.

Again, these are all subjective tests based on my effort to breathe through the fabric. I made no effort to clean anything prior to the testing and used the sleeve of each jacket as my test sample (vest excluded)

Nathan,

now I don't feel so silly having three Houdini's :)

Glad that I finally pulled the trigger on a Houdini from last years close out sales. We'll find a good alternative eventually.

Ryan

Thanks for the great information, measurements and tests.