2013 Spring Patagonia Houdini Pants / Jacket

Wow, thanks for that piece of info. I was actually going to get a Houdini Wind shirt sometime this week with my REI dividend (Houdini's are on sale at REI currently).

I'm probably going to hold off now!

Cheers Richard,

I was surprised how water restiant my 2013 Houdini was last week in Scotland, I did also notice it is less breathable than some of my other windshirts.

David Chenault,

Are you aware of an alternative wind shirt brand with breathability similar to the 2012 and older Houdinis?

My 2012 Houdini definitely isn't very waterproof, as I found when hiking along the Mist Trail in Yosemite last week. I'm with you, Richard, I don't want to sacrifice breathability for waterproofedness on this particular piece.

"Are you aware of an alternative wind shirt brand with breathability similar to the 2012 and older Houdinis?"

I don't have a basement of machines at my disposal, so my opinion is strictly based on field experience. That said, the 2012 Rab Cirrus breaths just about the same as the 2012 Houdini. DWR of the Rab is probably a bit less durable.

Richard, I assume the dramatic reduction in CFM and boost in HH is due to a more substantial Epic-esque DWR?

Shit!!! Ruined my day. I recently purchased the Spring 2013 jacket and pants after losing my beloved Spring 2012 jacket. :(

David,

You said, "Richard, I assume the dramatic reduction in CFM and boost in HH is due to a more substantial Epic-esque DWR?"

Don't know but I will take some micrographs of both material types in an attempt to answer your question.

del

Well that sucks!
I was going to get a Houdini some time soon.

I actually don't mind the additional waterproofness in the pants. I'm hoping to use them in lieu of a proper WP/B layer.

Well I have to say I've become a convert to the Rab Cirrus. I tried one last year and promptly sold my Houdini. This piece is awesome, feels great against my skin…love the thing, actually. I've had it for a year, still looks brand new, but really didn't do much bushwhacking. No wear at all at my shoulders. Also wore it riding my bike to work….

I find that I'm really getting into Rab's kit…and the hood is supreme. Just sayin'

Generally I agree Rick, but the Houdini fabric (sewn into a quality garment) was the gold standard for a windshirt. This year they've changed both the cut and the fabric. Patagonia has every right to do this of course, however when you have been producing the archetypal product for a gear category for the past several years, it's usually not a good idea to revamp the entire product.

It'd be like dupont changing the formula for teflon cookware coatings to be significantly more durable, but not nearly as non-stick without indicating any change to the consumer. You could no longer "trust" that brand to deliver on an implicit promise of a certiain performance profile.

When you change the gold in a gold standard to silver or platinum, it ceases to be a gold standard by definition.

There's always a risk of this with clothing of course since they "tinker" at least yearly as fashion changes. However when your fashionable clothing also doubles as performance gear in inclement environments, it's always disheartening to see dramatic changes (vs the incremental change we've previously seen in the dragonfly>houdini product line). I don't know why more companies don't just introduce two product lines that compete with each other for a season or two and then stick with the product that sells the best.

I think Arc'Teryx does this to a degree, especially with their synthetic insulation garments which are all very similar but with minor tweaks. Then products that didn't justify the sweatshop floor real estate are slowly phased out.

Maybe we should call the 2013 patagonia windshirt the Copperfield instead of Houdini…

How does the new Arcteryx Squamish compare? I really liked the breathability and air resistance of the Houdini. The Rab Cirrus looks nice, but it says the hood does not fit over a helmet. I'm too lazy to remove my helmet each time I want to move my hood up or down :(

David,

I haven't tested a Rab Cirrus but, the Moosejaw specs list the material as Pertex Quantum with a weight of 36 g/m2.

The Montane China website lists the air permeability for this fabric variant as:

PERTEX Quantum Triple Rip-stop
35 g/m² 100% RIP-proof nylon fabric, highest standard air 10.0cc (JIS l 1096/United States ASTM D737).

10.0 CC is equivalent to ~20 CFM. I agree that it appears to be a reasonable alternative to the pre 2013 Houdinis.

I have the current version of the squamish and really like it. Apparently the breathability is 110CFM more info here .

For me at least, it is perfect. Great for aerobic activities as it is very breathable and it is also probably the most water resistant of the bunch. Additionally I think it looks the best for wearing around town, and it has a peaked hood. I’ve found that sometimes the increased breathability can make any exposed skin feel a little cold under it though so I just always wear long sleeved shirts underneath it.

Richard,

The Montane China website lists the air permeability for this fabric variant as:

PERTEX Quantum Triple Rip-stop
35 g/m² 100% RIP-proof nylon fabric, highest standard air 10.0cc (JIS l 1096/United States ASTM D737).

On the Pertex website they list “Air permeability – 1.0cc (max)” for Quantum, Quantum GL and Microlight. The Rab Cirrus product page they also list “1cc”.

Are there other methods than JIS l 1096 for measuring air permeability or perhaps there is a typo on that Chinese website?

Peter and Tom,

In addition to your post, I received an email from a very knowledgeable fabric related forum member in Europe (Tom Van Wauwe). He said, " Montane lists the air-permeability for PQ as max. 1 cc (in several workbooks) and not 10 cc like on the Montane China website.

The majority (except for Montane China) of the Pertex Quantum spec sources for the Pertex Triple Rip-stop Quantum are inconsistent with Dave Chenault's assessment of the Rab Cirrus breathability relative to the old Houdinis; so, NOW I DON'T HAVE A CLUE if the Rab Cirrus is a reasonable alternative to the old Houdini's breathability.

Richard,

From a simple breath test, I could quite easily tell the difference in breathability between the old Houdini and several garments made from Pertex Quantum. Pertex Quantum was VERY noticably less breathable (though still slightly breathable – 1cc sounds about right). This was also true for other Pertex fabrics, such as Microlight.

I do prefer Pertex Quantum and similarly less breathable windshirts for climbing and other more 'static' activities, such as canyoneering. I wonder if this could be responsible for the change in Houdini fabric – most of their sponsored athletes are climbers, not hikers/backpackers.

I breath-tested about 15 windshirts last fall and found that only the old Patagonia Houdini and the Stoic Wraith had breathability suitable for backpacking and hiking. It's unfortunate that both garments are now discontinued, so to speak. It's a major disappointment and I intend to baby my Stoic Wraith from here on out.

If I recall correctly, using the breath test, I found MLD's fabric that they use on their quilts to be more breathable than Pertex Quantum. I don't believe it is as breathable as the old Houdini, but I can't say for sure. Perhaps MLD could step up, here?

I found that none of the 7D or 8D fabrics were that breathable – similar to Pertex Quantum or worse. The fabric used in the Stoic Wraith was the only exception. I have NOT tried Nobul1, which MAY be more breathable – I've read about it's lack of downproofness, which would indicate to me, that the material is either less tightly-woven than others, or less of a cirre finish.

As for the breath test, I've found it to be very accurate. If you can "easily" breath through the fabric, but feel strong resistance, that's the one you want. If you can barely breath through the fabric (almost feels like you're going to hyperventilate), it's going to be only mediocre for activities such as backcountry skiing, biking, hiking or backpacking.

I'd like to test out some biking windshirts, as they might fair better, but I'm happy with my Wraith and biking windshirts don't have hoods, so I haven't bothered yet.

David,

You said, "Richard, I assume the dramatic reduction in CFM and boost in HH is due to a more substantial Epic-esque DWR?

It appears that the weave pattern is identical between the 2012 (red) and 2013 (black) versions:

It also appears the fiber coating is identical between the 2012 (red) and 2013 (black) versions:

Only a CFM, HH test, or micrograph showing the interstice light passage pattern can tell the difference.

Richard,

Do you have any theories as to what is creating the different CFM results?

Brian,

Yes, it is the interstice pattern differences.

The following images were taken in a dimly lit room; a digital microscope with the light source from the bottom was used to capture the images; the microscope light rheostat was set to minimum; the camera exposure value was set to -1; and the field of view was 1.5 mm (~size of an ant or thickness of a US quarter). The tested material was a 2007 black Squamish (Gossamera fabric that was manufactured without the air permeable PU coating currently used), 2012 Red Houdini, and 2013 Black Houdini. I think the micrographs give a reasonable indication of why each fabric has the CFM value that it does.

101 CFM 2007 black Arcteryx Squamish (Gossamera fabric without an air permeable PU coating)

36 CFM 2012 red Patagonia Houdini

4 CFM 2013 black Patagonia Houdini

Please note that the Arcteryx Gossamera fabric is still produced and Arcteryx still uses it for the face fabric of jackets like the Atom SV Hoody. This fabric now has an air permeable PU coating that reduces the CFM to 7.

Brian wrote, "I'd like to test out some biking windshirts, as they might fair better, but I'm happy with my Wraith and biking windshirts don't have hoods, so I haven't bothered yet."

I have both a 2012 Houdini and a Brooks LSD II windshirt. I guess the Brooks is a geared to running windshirt?

In some ways, i actually like the Brooks windshirt more than the Houdini–mostly because it's a bit more breathable both with the fabric itself and it has a back vent. Being polyester it's also a bit more innately hydrophobic, but probably a bit less tougher than the Houdini. The Houdini i like more because of the deluge dwr is much longer lasting and higher quality put together.

The Brooks is for my now gear box and the Houdini is mostly saved for the later gear box (long story of why i have two different ones).

Richard,

Thanks for the information. I have absolutely zero knowledge of garment and material production. I'm a bit confused how the interstice pattern could be so different when the weave appears identical? Or is it just a difference in the tightness of the weave?

Brian,

I agree that the weave appears identical in most views. The interstice micrograph indicates the only difference is in increased tension for the 2013 Houdini's vertically oriented rip-stop threads.

You can tell that the 2013 Houdini is less breathable than 2012 and earlier Houdinis with a simple DIY "air suck" test. By how much and why takes a LOT more equipment and time.