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  • #1972624
    David Thomas
    BPL Member

    @davidinkenai

    Locale: North Woods. Far North.

    Charles: quite right. I went to spell check on google, hopped back to BPL, and screwed up.

    Advil AND Tylenol

    Or, if your prefer:

    Ibuprofen AND acetaminophen.

    #1972628
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    Between Ibuprofen and Acetaminophen, isn't one of them damaging to some people's livers or something? Maybe if you take just a little more than recommended dose?

    #1972632
    David Thomas
    BPL Member

    @davidinkenai

    Locale: North Woods. Far North.

    Nancy: my bad if I was unclear. (1) it is the Internet and no one not on the R2R2R Grand Canyon trip has ever seen me smile and (2) I've been on 22 flights for business and volunteer reasons in the last two weeks so, like now, I post from an iPhone at 33,000 feet and can't reread and edit my whole post on one screen. But, again, my bad.

    About me: straight guy. Married. Two kids. Nerd. Politically very liberal in a very conservative town. Not afraid, though, to start a PFLAG chapter locally, advocate for non-discrimination policies before the school board (unsuccessful) and (successfully) pass non-discrimination policies at the fourth largest employer within 150 miles (I'm on the BOD). I'm such a fricking ally,
    I perhaps am clueless to inaccurate perceptions I can create. And I say true stuff like "I've dated more lesbians (unknowingly) than most out women do in a decade." that people who don't know me take the wrong way.

    About that situation: my wife (an MD) and my SIL (another MD) took the unpaid and, I thought, helpful task of gathering a ton of medical supplies and information prior to a private Colorado River raft trip through GCNP. They sent out forms about medical history because that's what docs do. If you're unconscious, they'd still like to provide appropriate care and not, you know, kill you due to a drug allergy or unknown, underlying medical condition.

    Everyone seemed to take it that way and emailed forms to the docs and I NEVER SAW THEM. I never do. My wife and I have these annoying-to-me conversations where she vents about something that went wrong at the hospital while using only non-gendered pronouns and non-age-specific terms.

    But I knew one guy (out of 16 people) hadn't returned the form. He was the manscaped guy. Who'd most recently been to the GCNP at age 30 WITH HIS MOTHER. And he showed up with another twink guy. And in a crowd of lesbian oarmen (to use an oxymoronic phrase) and liberal straights, he was the only one to not be out (be out, I include LGBTQXYZ, whatever). So maybe I was inaccurately stereotyping him or maybe after decades in SF/Berkeley and living in Northampton, I have a bit of gaydar. That assessment is left for the reader. Of course his orientation has no bearing on medical treatment. But his serum status could very well have a lot of bearing on his health and need for health care. And my strong sense is that a closeted guy is less likely to disclose his serum status than someone who is more self-accepting.

    To be continued . . .

    Okay, I'm back at ground level. A mile high, but at ground level at another airport with contaminated groundwater (DEN).

    My point was that telling your companions about your health issues can help YOU. If there'd been a 300-pound women who refused sweets, was constantly thristy, pricking her finger many times a day and hadn't disclosed anything, I'd infer she likely had poorly controlled diabetes and I'd wonder WTF she wouldn't let the people most able to help in an emergency help her more. But there wasn't that person along on any trip I've been on. The person who may well have been the sickest person hadn't imparted any info to anyone. Mostly, that's to his deteriment. But while both docs along had trained for years in SF and are totally up on universal precautions, sure, anyone would be even more careful if they know someone is pos.

    #1972636
    Ian
    BPL Member

    @10-7

    Medicine/first aid isn't always an exact science but more of a collection theories and assumptions. Ask five different physicians and you'll likely hear five slightly different opinions. I have many thousands of hours invested into EMS, WFR, and advanced first aid training. If I give advice in reference to first aid, it's because I have experience or at the very least, have received relevant training in that area. You are entitled to have a difference of opinion but I'm willing to take an 18D with three combat tours plus the experiences of dozens of combat vets at their word. These same people recommend combat guaze. To be honest, we didn't carry it when I was deployed in the '90s nor did any of the ambulance companies I worked for ever carry it so I haven't personally used it. I carry it at work now but fortunately haven't had a need to use it.

    I've been doing this long enough to see some dramatic changes in medical protocols and conflicting guidelines from medical authorities so nothing is ever set in stone when it comes to this topic.

    #1972671
    David Thomas
    BPL Member

    @davidinkenai

    Locale: North Woods. Far North.

    Nancy,

    On your specific points:

    1) assumed you knew the man was gay

    Yeah, I did. Shaved chest – like his traveling partner, road trips with Mom, no mention of any partner/dating on a LONG trip on which everyone else was open about their varied lives. Mannerisms. Affect. There's nothing wrong with that – nothing at all – and I never said there was.

    2) assumed that because he was gay he either had AIDS or had a high chance of having it.

    Partly true. Gay men, on this planet, in the last 35 years, DO have a higher chance of being HIV+. I don't assume that so much as think I know that. From, well, actual data. All those peer-reviewed medical journals laying around the house – NEJ, JAMA – rags that like.

    Much more so, being the only one to not convey medical info to the physicians on the trip really stood out.

    You might want to wikipedia AIDS versus HIV+. The later can, untreated, lead to the former, but there's a big difference between them and while my snarky remark was only about someone who didn't seem to be willing to decrease his risks on the trip, everything I've written has been about the increased probability that he was poz. Nothing I saw, inferred, or wrote suggested he had AIDS.

    #1972709
    Hamish McHamish
    BPL Member

    @el_canyon

    Locale: USA

    Ian, what you initially posted was error, not opinion. If an 18d told you that QuikClot was nailed for causing "quick clots in the heart" then he is wrong. He almost certainly just mis-spoke (meaning to say WoundStat).

    I'm posting from my phone so it's a pain to paste in links but Google quik clot emboli to find the DoD directive where quik clot was superseded by combat gauze. Woundstat was shown to cause emboli, not quik clot, but in a bit of overkill they dropped all granular hemostatics.

    #1972712
    Erik Basil
    BPL Member

    @ebasil

    Locale: Atzlan

    1. I like the Adventure Medical kits, and use one as my base kit for modification/customizing. I like the light container, some of the gear it comes with and the price when one gets it on clearance from Sierra Trading. Mine sits inside the bottom section of a quart milk container. I don't have combat gauze in there, or any styptic, but I think this might be a great idea. "Be Prepared" always winds up "Being Heavy", ha ha!

    2. Who's got a hot tip on the smart/economical way to get combat gauze? I see it online, but have no frame of reference for price.

    3. Acetaminophen ("tylenol") is the med that can badly damage the liver if taken in excess dose or in the presence of alcohol in the blood. This is the real deal, but it's also excellent for basic pain and, particularly, headaches. Since headaches can be strong and common at altitude, acetaminophen is definitely an arrow in my first aid quiver. Key detail when dealing with youth: get permission and learn up on dosing by weight.

    4. Good job, David. Both on the excellent listing post and in dealing with the hysterical response to one of your comments.

    #1972735
    Ian
    BPL Member

    @10-7

    I never said that Quick Clot caused emboli. Re read my first response.

    Edit the comment you are referring to is from Max.

    #1972738
    Hamish McHamish
    BPL Member

    @el_canyon

    Locale: USA

    You are right, that was Max's statement. Your post entitled "easy" didn't quote anyone and I thought you were responding to me. In which case my comment applies doubly to Max's statement.

    #1972746
    Ian
    BPL Member

    @10-7

    You made reference to the emboli and necrosis so I assumed you were addressing both of us. Like I've said, I've seen medical protocol which was gospel on a Monday blown out of the water on Tuesday (eg reducing O2 treatment for COPD re hypoxic drive concerns) so I try to stay current. Unfortunately these discoveries aren't received or adopted by all health care professionals simultaneously for a multitude of reasons and trying to sift through conflicting guidelines can be frustrating. I believe we're more or less on the same sheet of music as far as this topic goes.

    #1972748
    Nancy Twilley
    Member

    @goodcaver2

    Locale: STL

    Wikipedia it, eh? Let's try to leave the snark aside for a minute — I'm well aware of how HIV leads to AIDS and of the history and prevalance of the disease in this country and around the world, among gay men as well as other social groups. If you want to get into a contest about who's got the better education on the subject we can do that, but I don't think that's going to solve the problem here.

    It seems like you do want to be an ally to the gay community — if you really want to do that, I maintain that you really need to check your privilege / prejudice here. As a gay person, I read the statements you're making and I don't see them as statements my allies make. You might start by watching how you throw around terms like "twink" — while this is widely used within the community, from straight people it's suspect. Just like making assumptions based on mannerisms or stereotypes like being close with one's mother — nothing wrong with thinking hey, that guy's probably gay, but when you start attaching other stereotypes to that (hey, that guy might be HIV+, hey, that guy probably has mommy issues), you're working counterproductive to your goal.

    If everyone was required to turn in a medical form and one person didn't turn it in, I can see why that's a problem. In that case, you should have said "(including ONE PERSON who wouldn't disclose his health status). The fact that he was gay did not necessarily mean he was HIV+, and it's not helpful (if you actually care about connecting to gay people or helping the gay community) to automatically assume that he was. You know as well as I do that ANYONE in this country can be HIV+ — treating an individual differently because he belongs to a certain social demographic is prejudice.

    #1972755
    Ian
    BPL Member

    @10-7

    Wearing gloves, eye protection, etc when dealing with body fluids is obviously never a bad idea regardless of who the patient is.

    I'm in a similar situation to David in that I'm comfortable around my LGBT friends and we're not afraid to have these conversations. I personally find this to be symptomatic of a society which is evolving away form stupid prejudices against homosexuals. Intelligent and polite conversation should always be encouraged.

    #1972824
    Bob Gross
    BPL Member

    @b-g-2-2

    Locale: Silicon Valley

    "3. Acetaminophen ("tylenol") is the med that can badly damage the liver if taken in excess dose "

    Also kidneys.

    A friend of mine had to undergo kidney dialysis after too much Tylenol.

    –B.G.–

    #1972867
    David Thomas
    BPL Member

    @davidinkenai

    Locale: North Woods. Far North.

    After donating blood one time, it came back with a poor result on a liver function test. I wasn't taking a ton of Tylenol, and it was all within the OTC limits, but I was taking a lot do to the aches and pains of a 40-something building a house, plumbing, etc. It was a helpful wake up call to dial it back.

    I was struck, 17 years ago, working in a professional (engineers + geologists) office, how no one else knew you can kill yourself (or end up on dialysis) by ODing on Tynelol. A co-worker's daughter had OD'ed in a cry-for-help move, and she and her parents were clueless about how serious it could have be until they were in teh ER. There's this assumption that OTC meds can be popped like candy. Actually, if you stay within the recommended dosages and durations, you'll minimize your risk. But some drugs have a surprisingly small ratio between the theraputic and toxic doses. And alcohol use, advanced age, or a different metabolism, and that ratio could fall below 1.

    #1972878
    David Thomas
    BPL Member

    @davidinkenai

    Locale: North Woods. Far North.

    >"2. Who's got a hot tip on the smart/economical way to get combat gauze? I see it online, but have no frame of reference for price."

    $100 per dressing? $200? Maybe more. Something in that ballpark. It will be a long time before you see it in Walgrens next to the Ace wraps and finger splints.

    This probably won't work for you, but my wife, a month before that fateful GCNP raft trip (when I was apparently the mortal enemy of all gay people everywhere) asked for a professional sample. The company sent some out along with a video where some pig pigs bleed like, you guessed it!, "stuck pigs" and other had vastly less blood loss. Maybe they calculated the extent of the wound very carefully, but they had some impressive comparision numbers for treating massive blood loss traditionally and with their clayey bandaid. It was something like 10% survival without and 90% survival with their wonder bandaids. I'll look around for it. We don't have any big, remote trips planned for awhile and she could always do the same thing again. She's also more particular about expiration dates than I am. It was clay 10 million years ago, it was clay last year, I'm pretty sure it will be clay in a decade. I'll check and maybe I can send you those sample pack.

    It was striking to me that it is basically a dressing impregnated with bentonite clay. Wyoming has cubic miles of the stuff and I use fancy versions (powders and different-sized pellets) when constructing air- and water-wells. I literally have some under my fingernails right now, sitting in this DEN airport lounge because I was just pilot testing some treatment systems at a fuel-spill site this morning. I have NO idea if blood clotting is the same in salmon (the species I most often dispatch), but I'm tempted to slap some bentonite clay on a Johnston&Johnston gauze pad the next time a 4-H'er has a few pigs to slaughter. I suspect the incredibly high adsorptive capacity, and high surface energy of those very tiny clay particles would work just as a well as the FDA-approved vendor's version.

    #1972889
    David Thomas
    BPL Member

    @davidinkenai

    Locale: North Woods. Far North.

    >"I'm well aware of how HIV leads to AIDS. . . "

    Then use the right term. If someone who reads things in context and considers who's saying what had made such a stupid little mix-up like confounding HIV for AIDS, I'd let it pass. But you're the one policing volcabulary and projecting all sorts of beliefs and ideas onto others.

    >"treating an individual differently because he belongs to a certain social demographic is prejudice." Of course it is. But does it help or hurt? If I chase after a Celt with SPF50 lotion more quickly than I do for a southern Euporean, I'm making all sorts of assumptions. Similary, I attach no stigma to the HIV+ person, but (if I was the medical provider) would want to be able to respond with appropriate care and some medical conditions make a big difference in patient care.

    "twink", like "bear" is, in my circles, simply descriptive. Not pegorative. If I'm in a dialouge with Dan Savage, he's pulling all sorts of terms (and their meanings) from the dominant culture. As I am with terms from different subcultures including many to which I don't belong. I know there are highly dramatic and extended debates about whether a non-member of a (gay, black, kink, vor, etc) community should use vocab from that community. The n-word (youtube Tim Minchin on that) for blacks and the d-word for lesbians are, in my opinion, still too dodgy to use more widely. But on a daily basis, I usurp terms from Spanish (Sierra) Hispanic (burrito), French (ala mode), Black (rock&roll), gay, geek, Star Trek, and academic cultures. And I'm not going to stop. To each their own.

    Much of this reminds of "janitors" becoming "custodians" 40 years ago. I never saw the problem as they were doing important, neccessary work and I didn't look down on them. But for people who saw the janitors as "the lowly guys who hauls the trash", the new terms quickly had all the same negative connotations.

    Reread what I wrote in the context of "an ally who doesn't police his vocabulary and was giving an extreme example of not disclosing health issues to make a point." and maybe it wouldn't seem so evil.

    #1972897
    Hamish McHamish
    BPL Member

    @el_canyon

    Locale: USA

    Combat gauze runs about $35 a roll though some will gouge those who don't shop around. That's for the standard roll, the XL roll is a lot more. There are cheaper alternatives to CG now (i.e. Celox gauze) that have good performance data backing them. The most recent studies actually call for looking at these newer products instead of CG.

    The kaolin in CG becomes less effective once it absorbs moisture, so the risk with old CG is that the packaging has been compromised and let air/moisture in.

    Proper wound packing technique is king. You can do a lot with plain gauze or improvised materials. Look on YouTube for good tutorials from TacMed Solutions.

    #1972903
    Bean
    BPL Member

    @stupendous-2

    Locale: California

    '"twink", like "bear" is, in my circles, simply descriptive. Not pejorative.'

    I've personally given up trying to keep apprised of what naming conventions evolve to become offensive to various members of a particular conceptualized group. So, now when I'm unsure I just refer to them as "a–holes", a category I'm proud to count myself a member of.

    #1972908
    Nancy Twilley
    Member

    @goodcaver2

    Locale: STL

    If you want to be an ally, listen to the people you want to ally yourself with.

    #1972910
    jscott
    BPL Member

    @book

    Locale: Northern California

    Concerning slang terms offensive to groups: these days, a lot of people think that it's kitsch and cool to "bring back" terms and throw them around as a sort of challenge, really. The implication is that the terms have been de-fanged; or again, in the right hands, re-worked to become provocative in the opposite way that they once were. Case in point: Bitch Magazine; very feminist of course. To paraphrase Marx, the idea seems to be that the first time around derogatory slang is hateful and offensive; the second time, kitsch and/or empowering. As for me, I cringe just typing the B word.

    I think that a better strategy would be to leave the hateful slang behind entirely and move on. I certainly am not cool enough or young enough to get away with any of it.

    This is all just general commentary and not intended for anybody. Like half my posts.

    #1972911
    Max Dilthey
    Spectator

    @mdilthey

    Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com

    David,

    As much as I believe your actions towards the gay community are in line with the way society is supposed to be acting, the way you've portrayed yourself in this thread gives Nancy a lot of credence. Your reference to his sexual preference was suspect, this was furthered by your explanation, and whatever the "statistics" say, it's not appropriate to make assumptions about individuals based on sexual preferences, ever. Assumptions underlie prejudice often enough that an ally like you doesn't want to support the trend.

    I think the best thing to do is not to challenge Nancy. She's right. If I were in your shoes, I'd apologize for the misunderstanding, and everyone's on the same page; a lot more effective than sarcastically calling yourself an enemy of gay rights.

    It's an era where political correctness is overblown, but in this particular situation, the connection between medical information, AIDS, and homosexuality is not fair and not appropriate. In my opinion; you can take it for what it is. Just observations!

    Nancy, good on you for keeping your voice loud. It's commendable and I applaud it. I'm gonna give Dave the benefit of the doubt here and say I believe he meant no harm; his past posts never indicate anything remotely like prejudice; contrary, I think he's more open-minded than everyone else on the forum.

    #1972914
    Cayenne Redmonk
    BPL Member

    @redmonk

    Locale: Greater California Ecosystem

    Nancy, a name and a description.

    #1972923
    Ian
    BPL Member

    @10-7

    False Max! False!

    It was scientifically proven that Fred Abernathy is 2% more open minded than David.

    OP,

    Nothing wrong with a zip lock FAK but I have to admit that I really like Adventure Med's kits for the bags. +whatever on adding triple antibiotic, ibuprofen, immodium, and an antihistamine. I bought one of these kits for my parents and felt it was of good quality.

    #1972926
    Bob Gross
    BPL Member

    @b-g-2-2

    Locale: Silicon Valley

    Does Combat Gauze effect the taste of the pork meat from the pig after the demonstration is finished?

    –B.G.–

    #1972928
    Larry De La Briandais
    BPL Member

    @hitech

    Locale: SF Bay Area

    We ALL make them all the time. When you first meet someone you make all kinds of assumptions as to what they are like. We do this because we don't have much to go on. When the assumptions we are making are important, such as attempting to determine why the only person of a group of 16 refused to provide medical information, especially when we might be involved in providing medical treatment, most of us would use whatever information we had. Since assuming the person in question might he HIV+ doesn't hurt anyone and may in fact help, it is a "good" assumption to make. If "you" are offended that someone would make that assumption in that situation then I suggest that "you" are just a little to sensitive.

    I worked with someone I believed to be homosexual, but they never said in the over 20 years I knew them. I assumed they were. It had no effect on any of my interactions with them. I guess I am prejudiced also… At least they didn't seem to mind.

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