Mar 1, 2013 at 4:05 pm #1299863
@geokiteLocale: Southern California
Did a search here, didn't find any posts showing this already.
Dated 2/18/13, down the page a bit: http://www.rayjardine.com/News/index.htm
So, who would like to go first? :)
SteveMar 1, 2013 at 4:45 pm #1960261
– -K.T.- –Participant
One reason they don't make square tent poles.Mar 1, 2013 at 5:29 pm #1960281
@cameronLocale: Idaho Falls
People have hiked thousands of miles with Cuben gear without problems. Sorry but some little video isn't going to change my mind on that. A real test of cuben would be how hard it was to rip a tie out off a tarp or rip a strap off a pack.Mar 1, 2013 at 5:36 pm #1960285
Ben 2 WorldParticipant
@ben2worldLocale: So Cal
Would be really helpful if folks like Joe of Zpacks — those who work with cuben and are familiar with the fabric will chime in.Mar 1, 2013 at 5:36 pm #1960286
He needs to tear 0.53 oz silnylon. Trust me, it tears easily.
He is such an opportunistic Prick.Mar 1, 2013 at 5:46 pm #1960290
@owareLocale: Steptoe Butte
Simple seam with .51 cuben one side 1.3 oz silnylon other side. Pulled to failure.
Stitching, cuben and silnylon all failed together at 42 lbs.
The fabrics are comparable in strength in my experience. A second row of stitches would have increased the
strength of the seam overall.
Note the unreinforced web tie outs remained undamaged.Mar 1, 2013 at 5:49 pm #1960294
@retiredjerryLocale: Oregon and Washington
"So, who would like to go first? :)"
Good one Stephen
Yeah, that "test" is not very useful
Ray is such a self-promoterMar 1, 2013 at 5:49 pm #1960295
@cameronLocale: Idaho Falls
I don't presume to know Ray Jardine's character but it does come off looking bad. Sorta like "hey Cuben stinks so keep buying my silnylon kits."
I don't think Jardine has come up with a new idea since the 90s but he's still trying to pass himself off as an expert and peddle his gear kits. He has a right to do that, but I also have a right to say a new backpacker would be much better off looking to Ryan Jordan, Andrew Skurka or Brian Robinson for ideas.Mar 1, 2013 at 6:00 pm #1960299
Screw Jardine- I wanna know what Gross thinks.Mar 1, 2013 at 6:07 pm #1960301
Same guy that can't seem to properly care for or keep dry his down bags either. See Page 17Mar 1, 2013 at 6:16 pm #1960305
@b-g-2-2Locale: Silicon Valley
I've never seen a Jardine kit, so I can't say much about them.
The cuben fiber stuff that I have has turned out nicely, but maybe that is because I figured out how to treat them to avoid damage.
–B.G.–Mar 1, 2013 at 6:20 pm #1960306
I'm sorry, but his take on certain things reads like a parody.
It also appears that, despite all he has done for the backpacking world, everyone has moved on and he doesn't know how to adapt to more modern techniques and gear.
For example, he claims that his synthetic quilt should last decades if properly cared for. Ok, sure. But then…
"Unlike goose down which eventually goes flat, our synthetic insulation does not."
Apparently only Ray has this magical synthetic insulation?Mar 1, 2013 at 6:35 pm #1960312
@butukiLocale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Steve, didn't you know that Jardine won't allow you to copy that URL and post it without his permission? Just wait. He's going to come after you!Mar 1, 2013 at 7:19 pm #1960322
@johnnybgood4Locale: New Hampshire
>>>I don't presume to know Ray Jardine's character but it does come off looking bad. Sorta like "hey Cuben stinks so keep buying my silnylon kits." <<<
Jeff Lowe (famous climber and founder of Latok Mountain Gear) had this to say about Jardine's character:
"But to the point of Ray's character:
I was there in '71 or '72 at my brother Mike's house in Gunnison, CO. Mike, Ray and I were Outward Bound instructors and therefore had something in common. Greg was over from Utah to work with Mike on the camming concept, which he'd been developing since 1967. Jardine had been invited to a spaghetti dinner, and Greg offerred to show him the current state of development of his new protection device for climbing, but first Ray had to sign a non-disclosure/non-compete agreement.
Ray was a quick engineering study and soon grasped the essentials of the constant-angle cam and spring-load concept. It was all-in-all a very convivial and exciting sharing among friends. This is why, several years later, when word began to leak out about Ray's secret devices, Greg sent the first of a string of registered letters to Jardine, seeking to come to some sort of agreement over his breach of faith. All the letters were refused, so it was that, finally, after Friends came out on the market and Mark Vallance began producing them under license from Ray, that Greg finally filed suit. To make a long story a little shorter, Mark, who is a stand-up guy, but had not been told the whole story by Ray, finally agreed to pay Greg a settlement for the use of the camming concept. Who needs an enema when you've got a friend like Ray?"
Post #87 — User Jello is well known to be Jeff Lowe.Mar 1, 2013 at 7:30 pm #1960328
@andrew-fLocale: San Francisco Bay Area
It always amuses me that Jardine has a good reputation in the backpacking world, because it's the opposite in the climbing world. Aside from the story above, there are numerous other tales of his less than ethical behavior. For instance, the Jardine Traverse on the Nose route on El Capitan bears his name- because he chiseled the holds on it into the rock with a hammer.Mar 1, 2013 at 7:49 pm #1960333
@maynard76Locale: New England
I had not heard these stories. I thought he was a bit eccentric but this is a new perspective.Mar 1, 2013 at 7:53 pm #1960334
he compares 1.35 silnylon to 0.51 cuben, a factor of 2.5 x lighter material.
Why doesnt he compare it to 0.74 or 1.0 or 1.4 cuben? Because he would look foolish, thats why. Those materials, although lighter or equal to silnylon still, are much much stronger than the 0.51.
He only wants to make a flawed point, to steer people to his kits.Mar 1, 2013 at 9:54 pm #1960365
Jardine can be a crank on certain subjects. He seemed very grounded when writing on UL concepts but sounded a little freaky when he got on the subjects of food and nutrition. I swear I could hear the Twilight Zone theme and the book spoke to me in Rod Sterling's voice :)Mar 1, 2013 at 11:03 pm #1960371
@anthonywestonLocale: Southern CA
I'm not going back to silnylon. Much less condensation with cuben.
No problems in the field.Mar 1, 2013 at 11:27 pm #1960375
Well just don't put your Cuben up against a square edged piece of wood and pull sideways on it :)
From the North Sails web site:
Cuben Fiber gives North sail designers the opportunity to design very light and easily pressurized sails with enough strength to handle high shock loads. There is no other lightweight sail material in the world that offers the strength needed to absorb the energy of an asymmetric sail refilling after a gybe, or the loads generated when sailing in lumpy seas. Super light Cuben Fiber styles weigh 33-50% less than the lightest coated nylon spinnaker cloths. A Cuben Fiber asymmetric spinnaker will stay pressurized and will load the spinnaker sheet at significantly lower apparent wind angles than any other material, providing a significant net VMG gain. The advantage is most pronounced in small-medium size boats where “traditional” spinnaker fabrics are tend to be somewhat overweight by nature.
If you can run a 50' sailboat upwind, you should be able to use it for a tarp!Mar 2, 2013 at 12:21 am #1960386
Agreed. +1 "If you can run a 50' sailboat upwind, you should be able to use it for a tarp!"
"I'm not going back to silnylon. Much less condensation with cuben." +1 AnthonyMar 2, 2013 at 2:47 am #1960394
@newtonLocale: Southeastern Louisiana
I'm not sure that cuben in and of itself as a material is less prone to condensation than say PU coated, silnylon or any other material.
If the temperature outside of your tent or tarp varies greatly enough from the temperature inside or underneath your shelter I believe you will see condensation.
Condensation is produced by the evaporative effect of a temperature differential in much as the same way it occurs in an air conditioning unit "evaporator" coil.
I'll agree that some materials are better conductors of heat than others. This is confusing to me though because if for the sake of discussion cuben is less prone to condensation wouldn't that make it more breathable?
Correct if I am wrong, but by nature isn't silnylon more breathable than cuben?
What kind of shelters are we speaking about? How are they set up? Are they single wall, hybrids or double wall shelters?
I want to understand what makes cuben less prone to condensation if it is so.
NewtonMar 2, 2013 at 2:53 am #1960395
Perhaps Ray should watch this video .
It's well known that cuben fiber tears easily from a cut edge. It would be interesting to see the same test with a seamed strip of cuben. Also, is it just me or is Ray pulling the cuben differently from the silnylon? He seems to be jerking it more, and angling the pull to maximise the stress on the weak cut edge.Mar 2, 2013 at 3:00 am #1960397
"It's well known that cuben fiber tears easily from a cut edge. It would be interesting to see the same test with a seamed strip of cuben. Also, is it just me or is Ray pulling the cuben differently from the silnylon? He seems to be jerking it more, and angling the pull to maximise the stress on the weak cut edge."
Obvious to me. Note the grunting on the soundtrack for the silnylon video. Pure PT Barnum!Mar 2, 2013 at 5:36 am #1960414
@jenmitolLocale: In my dreams....
I've only had a chance to use my hexamid about a dozen nights or so, but I find the condensation is far easier to manage, not that there is necessarily less of it.
When the silnylon would get wet it would hold onto the moisture, sag like crazy no matter how tight the pitch was the night before, and seem to just stay wet. The cuben does get wet, especially over my head (which happens to be where the dog sleeps too…so I blame him), but doesn't seem to drip, sag, or cause me difficulties in any way. It slides down the wall of the hex, runs into the netting on the floor, and voila…no worries. (As an aside, while initially quite skeptical of the net floor, I find it rather ingenious now)
This is why, sadly for my bank account, I don't think I would ever buy a silnylon shelter again.
I guess I just need to be careful about pulling it against a sharp edged piece of wood, as some previous folks have warned. Thanks for the heads up!!!
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