Big Sky International Update

Ron:

You wrote: "Don’t let your hard feelings for any equipment purchase consume you and make you bitter. Lingering bitterness is much higher price to pay. Try to heal and move on".

I know you mean well. But you own a business yourself. Believe me, if you spell out a 4-6 weeks delivery policy, take our money, and then screw us for 15-18 MONTHS — we will be hounding you too, and warning others to stay away from you — no questions about that!!! But the important thing to know, Ron, is that we post because we feel the need to warn off unsuspecting buyers. It's too bad you are confusing this with 'bitterness'.

Ron, here's another perspective for you. Some people get burned from an online transaction and swear off buying anything online again. Similarly, when some folks get burned by an unscrupulous independent gearmaker, others in the cottage industry may be affected as well. I would think that members of the cottage industry will collectively watch out for the buying public — rather than wax philosophically about healing and moving on…

You raise some good points, Michael.

Lynch mob, about face. 8-o

Ron, for those in "leadership" roles—and I'm including those who shape opinion —I think there is a responsibility to provide full disclosure to their clients, their audience, if they are in possession of information that contraindicates an earlier stated position. In the case under discussion, this lack of full disclosure ( by the Outdoor media) fosters a situation in which the consumers of their target community are set up for a situation, while it might not be fraud, is definitely at the consumers expense.

This applies to Backpacker, Outside, BPL, the capital "I" Industry, the small "i" cottage industry and even we overheated forum participants. We all have a role to play to help insure that the wilderness activities community is well-served, that the equipment industry is ethical, that reviews be honest and that the full spectrum of opinion gets a voice.

Sure, I agree that continued engagement w/ entities such as Backpacker is more effective, ultimately, in effecting policy changes than cancelled subscriptions. It may not always need to be artificially positive, but it had better be honest and probably persistant. The squeaky wheel gets greased. The quiet, complacent consumer gets hosed.

End of pedantic post. :-J
cheers
KD

Yeah,
I made a stupid commit about Big Sky but only because it was true.
Enough of that.

The obvious problem is that they just can't keep up.
The thing is they have so many products it's almost understandable.

What they really need to do is stop taking orders for the bottom half of their products, and stop selling them until they can catch up.
It wouldn’t be that bad if they only had to worry about what they really wanted to push to customers.

When you're digging a hole and can’t keep up the only way to slow it down is to use a smaller shovel.

Or, BS should do what Ron Bell of MLD did. He basically stopped taking orders until he could recreate his company to handle increased demand. Also, right on the intro page of his site he states that MLD is backordered several weeks—you know what you're getting into.

This is ethical, this is honest. This is easily emulated.

I was critical of Ron's comments above. But his practice of not taking orders until he catches up should be applauded!!!

Compare and contrast this with Bob Molen — who's still hitting the trail heads peddling his tents and promising 4 to 6 weeks delivery!

Exactly!

I don’t claim to speak for members of the UL Cottage industry, though we have spoken together about Big Sky’s problems. There is considerable dismay, because like it or not, Bob’s actions reflect on all of us. We’ve gone as far as to discuses forming a small UL business association to setup standards and practices, though frankly none of us has the time to actually organize it and get it off the ground.

The bottom line is business like Big Sky come and go all of the time. Their not the first, nor will they be the last. Fortunately we live in a day when communication is almost instant. The internet provides a rich set of generally balanced views on all topics imagined. Forums like this can provide people with ample understanding when making critical decisions on what actions to take, whether before purchase or after the sale has taken place.

I know many people have been critical of Backpacker Magazines endorsement of Big Sky’s tents. Many people have been equally and forcibly critical about the magazines lack of coverage of ultralight gear. Claiming that if we don’t advertise they won’t cover us. Neither of which I’ve found to be true.

The fact is that despite a decade of progress, the UL industry is just beginning to stand on its feet and take a few tentative steps. We’re not, as they say, ready for prime time. Most of us are still in that transition phase between, “Oh god I can’t believe I’m still in business” to how do we make this into a real business. We have to start thinking about what to do if the business doubles or triples while still looking back over our shoulders wondering if we’re riding some short term UL bubble that’s destine to pop and leave us bankrupt and broken.

I generally don’t fault Backpacker Magazines role in this matter. Though I do believe that some level of consumer education is still absent. Believe me there is little thrill like seeing one your creations rated highly sitting right next to one of the industries giants. While that’s thrilling for me, the reader is unaware that I’m not a big guy. If I have to travel, there may not be someone here to answer a question or solve a problem as soon as they may expect. An occasional article in Backpacker Magazine, or even Backpacking Light, on the differences between the cottage gear manufactures and the big guys could help to educate people and temper expectations.

In the meantime all of us have a role to play, both on the pages of these and other forums and in our personal discussions with fellow hikers. Criticism is not only necessary, it’s vital for the health of any business. However, criticism should always be delivered with perspective. Problems we view as nonstarters may not be so to others with different needs or desires. So any criticism should be tempered with why we personally find fault. This way, readers can get a full perspective when making decisions.

Ron Moak

Well said Ron, really well said. Flaming for flaming sake never accomplishes anything. Bpl and Backpacker mag aren't in the policing business. It comes down to "buyer beware" , so do your homework folks, before you give 'em your credit card.

Well said Ron.

Impressive post Ron.

I admire you guys, as it's a very delicate balance for a small business to provide a good product at a reasonable price, the level of customer service many have come to expect (even when the owner is on vacation), and appropriate support through the lifecycle of the products, all balanced with ***staying in business***. It takes a lot of guts, smarts, faith, luck and hours to make it in these businesses. (I'll admit I'm a wimp, having left a very small company in a small speciality industry segment because I had a wife, 2 small kids and was tired of the bouncing paycheck dreams.)

Those who successfully navigate these challenges face more difficult problems as they and the industry segment grows. Two of the more obvious challenges include:

"Waking up the giants"(if Coleman goes ultralight tomorrow, how are you going to compete with their volume, distribution, marketing, support system and pricing. As a small company, you probably didn't have the money to establish Intelectual Property rights, so you have no claim against their 100% copy of your designs and research.

"Snuggling up to an alligator" (if you decide to go the teaming approach, and REI starts selling your gear tomorrow becoming 70% of your business, how are you going to keep them happy, and avoid the "Rubbermaid / Walmart problem", where one ended up in bankruptcy.)

If you look at the basic tenents of Ultralight, they're solid, and this segment should expect good growth into the future. I sincerely hope the current "cottage industries" *DO* find the time to form an industry trade association. These have a history of helping the little guy, while giving customers a level of confidence in whom they're dealing with, and set expected standards and practices.
Further, trade associations have a tendency to highlight and advertise the benefits of their entire segment, giving credability to the business area and a boost to their members. These segments are often good investment areas.

Great input Ron,
thanks,
MikeB

P.S. Ryan J, is this something you'd be interested in helping to kick off? ;)

Ron Moak,
Lots and lots of kudos to you.
I am not the only one that has expressed dismay at reading generic comments about the risk of buying from "cottage manufacturers" because of the Big Sky saga.
If Bob had taken the Ron Bell way, it would have been much better for all of you guys.
As much as I can, I like to buy locally, but my last two tents,quilt, stove and 2 backpacks are all from USA cottage manufacturers because there is nothing like that sold here in Australia.I received great service and great products from all of them.
None of my products are SMD but looking at the specs and reading the many favorable comments about them, I am sure that I would have been happy with all of them, so it would be a great shame for the Big Sky saga to indirectly tarnish your excellent reputation.
Keep up the good work !!!
Franco

I posted the photos from Trail Days. While I thought about asking him about this controversy, I wasn't really involved enough in this discussion to feel comfortable putting him on the spot.

Kudos, Ron. And may I put in a big plug for Ron's company. I hiked 9 days with his Starlite pack last year, and it was a most superb hike, and as advertised, it rides fantastic with a 35 pound load (my base load is 22 pounds but with water and food, it was 35 pounds).

I find the best gear to be from the small companies (tarptent, sixmoondesigns, luxurylight, ula, gossamergear, antigravitygear, ursack, wild-ideas to name those I've done business with). I do do business with the big companies too but the major gear pieces some to come from the small companies whose keenness to the needs of avid hikers is most sharp.

Geez, you guys spend a lot of time talking about these tents made of unobtanium. Now Im getting so riled up I posted again about it.. and I don't even want one!

Someone said: "The only thing worse than being talked about, is not being talked about."
So if you dislike BS or BPM so much, just drop the subject, get your refund, and let B.S. live or die a natural death in the free market ecomomy?

Or better yet, looking at the B.S. website, there is nothing revolutionary about those nylon tents, make and sell them yourself to fill this obviously great demand! : )

Finally a light in the darkness, well said Brett!

I disagree.

If BS' problems were resolved, then most all of us would be happy to just let the issue die. Take Wanderlust Gear for example. A few years back, the owner (Kurt) was quite responsive with delivery and all — until he just vanished all of a sudden — leaving the last few paid-up buyers with no tents! However, the company's website was still up and running for a year afterwards, ready to receive orders and payments from unsuspecting buyers! Many of us posted warnings for about a year — until the website itself finally expired. Nowadays, no one mentions the guy or the company anymore, simply because it is now truly history.

In contrast, Bob Molen is STILL showing up on Trail Days peddling his tents and promising 4-6 week deliveries for all!

Yes, many if not most of us are pretty tired of BS! But to newcomers, these posts are still useful — unfortunately.

I almost pulled the trigger and ordered one this week! Man am I glad these forums are up and running and UP-TO-DATE. Information is a needed commodity in these times of UL manufacturing/manufacturers to keep the community in touch with the pendulum swings. I for one am sad to hear of the Big Sky Int. production problems as I believe they have an outstanding product- however, the delivery and continued customer service is paramount to me when purchasing.

I hope they get it together- the UL industry needs continued innovation and people willing to put their savings on the line to push the envelope even further.

Good luck ….but I am on the sidelines pending your responses to all these good folks who fronted their trust/money!

"couch"

indeed in need of editing! scat-away!

Rats, Dave your editing has rendered my wit, witless. So, bye,bye bon mot.

Now, more to the point—
Along the lines of Mike Barney, a professional cottage industry association would, I think, really further these micro-manufacturers in many ways such as enforcing a code of ethics, furthering PR in the larger world of Outdoor Equipment and might also serve to help protect intellectual property rights. I can easilly see it as an energy strain for this still small pool of cottage designer/manufacturers (as Ron Moak says) and as with many artists, inventors and other individualists—-rather like herding cats. All I can say is that associations have often helped me and my peers in the Interior Design and allied fields in any number of ways.

I just noticed that this forum has heated up again about Kristin and BP Magazine and its review and award to BS for its tents. I detect heat on both Kristin's and some on the posters' side, most notably Benjamin Tang who is not noted for losing his cool.

So, what to make of this whole affair. Let's be realistic. Nothing will change BS's approach to customer service if all of the negative posting here has not done so already. Also, and sadly, nothing will change BP's penchant for looking only at the "cool" factor without regard to other and more important factors. Sorry, Kristin but your comment that the tent "rocks" reveals entirely too much about BP. ( a short aside: Assume Backpacaker Magazine "rocks". If you never sent out a paid subscriber his copy of the magazine, would it still "rock" and would the subscriber be entitled to some level of pique with you? It's a worthy comparison whether you think so or not.)

So, back to what to do. I really think that the only solution is to leave the forums entirely and pursue legal action against the company. I am sure that someone from this forum has ordered a tent and lives in the state in which BS is incorporated. File a complaint with the department of corporations. Take the fool to small claims court. Shut his business down if you feel wronged enough.

I would encourage BPL to not review or carry any references to BS or any of its products on the site. If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it does it still make a sound? Stop listening and hoping for BS to make changes; change the dialogue. Use your financial muscle. If a site or magazine advertises BS stop doing business with the site or the magazine. Exercise your consumer power and rights. Are you listening BPL?

I am fairly new to the site and must admit to being a Backpacker Magazine reader. I'm going with my son to Philmont in a few weeks and wanted a really great tent and ordered one in early April with a promised delivery date of June 1. I have since called and e-mailed the company with no response. I guess my question for the Backpaker Magazine folks is, should I just keep on waiting for the tent or is there a more reliable company that makes a comparable light weight tent that I should consider? Time is getting short! (Responses from any of you pros would be much appreciated.)

I guess my question for the Backpaker Magazine folks is, should I just keep on waiting for the tent or is there a more reliable company that makes a comparable light weight tent that I should consider? Time is getting short!

http://www.tarptent.com … Henry may or may not be able to deliver in time but he'll try hard and if he says we can, he will.

Either Ron Moak or Henry will be the type who deliver on their promises. email Henry or Ron and ask about your needs. Trust that their tents will deliver the performance you want. Their tents are a good value as well. Please don't expect BP magazine to give you advise on this issue. AS you can see from the many posts about BS and BP's complicity in promoting a charlatan, you won't get a straight answer or one that will assist you in getting a tent that meets your needs. You might also want to print out the excellent article on preparing for Philmont that appears on this site. here is the reference hyperlink:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/boy_scout_gear_list_philmont.html

George,
1. did you order this tent based on your reliance on the Backpacker Magazine's (BPM) recommendation of this tent?
2. do you feel that you are in a position of disadvantage in so far as securing a satisfactory shelter to take to Philmont with your son?
3. will this reliance on Backpacker Magazine negatively affect your experience with you son at Philmont?
4. When you relied on Backpacker Magazine in making a decision to order this tent, did you infer that Backpacker Magazine was also promoting the manufacturer as a reliable supplier of gear?

your answer to these questions, just might bluntly put this matter in proper perspective for BPM which is monitoring this thread through one it's editors and who has, heretofore, refused to acknowledge that she and her company have any responsibility to the consumer in this matter.

Not to pile on BS, but business practices such as those employed by Bob Molen are unacceptable and should be brought to the attention of everyone possible, lest several others be "duped". I wholeheartedly agree with the whistle-blowing that is going on from the UL community (especially on this site), and i must say that the total lack of concern for the general public by BPM is typical of large companies and publications that have absolutely no concern for anything outside of lining their own pockets. It is Backpacking Magazines responsibility to fully research a product that they will endorse as an "award-winner" and to take everything into consideration, not just whether or not the product "rocks" to borrow Kristin's phrase.

My family owns a small business, and whether or not we produced the absolute best product in the world or provided the most amazing service ever imagined, if we handled our customers the way Big Sky does i would hope that there wouldn't be a single customer calling. In addition, i would hope that other small businesses would call us on it. Fortunately not everyone operates as unscrupulously as Bob Molen.

The responses for Shire's Tarptent and Six Moon Designs are good ones. I own two SMD shelters (the Lunar Solo E and the Gatewood Cape) and can attest they are both superb for their intended uses.

However, if you are looking for a freestanding double wall tent, like the Big Sky Evolution 2P2D2V, the best alternative on the open market would have to be the MSR Hubba Hubba. It's a pound heavier, but you can get it and reliably use it at Philmont. I would say the chance of your getting a tent from BS is pretty much zero. I have followed this debacle on this and two other sites and the earliest ANYONE has gotten a tent is about 7 months with most going a year to 18 months.

I honestly think BPM had no real clue about the severity of BS's production issues when they issued their Editor's Choice Award. But the fact remains that you'll be much better off cancelling your order and getting a very good tent rather than waiting on a "great" but nonexistent one.