Big Sky International Update

Don:

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought all along you were on the sidelines… and now thinking about ordering because Bob Molen emailed you about the expected delivery date.

Now, I realize you have actually placed an order 18 months ago. Wow, you've remained silent for more than a year — even though you were made to believe a delivery time of 4-6 weeks? Moi, I would have started biitching long ago!

I will write to the Vatican and see if we can 'fast track' you for sainthood. I feel pretty confident about this one.

Kidding aside, I agree that if Bob initiated the email, then yes, your ship (tent) has finally come in. Enjoy your new tent!

Kristen:

As you can see, folks are receiving their tents — but still in the same "onesie and twosie" fashion — and still the same 15 to 18 months timeframe.

Remember when you were told in the latter part of 2006 by Bob Molen that because of the second factory set up, things will be caught up by "early Spring"? I hope you are now seeing the pattern: the usual "4 to 6 weeks" ploy that Bob always uses!!!

In a nutshell, Kristen, you were lied to — just like all the rest of us…

Don,

So far you're in the lead for the "Longest Wait for B.S." trophy. The prize, in keeping with a "Bob's Promise", is an empty, invisible, vaporware stuff sack.

But seriously, I hope you get your tent soon. They're great and I'm sure you'll like it.

Evolution 2P at Sky Camp on Feb. 23, 2007, Point Reyes National Seashore.

The amazing thing, to me, about all of this is not the question of the reputation of BS. That is a given. But BPMs involvement and culpability in promoting this company is just beyond understanding. Even after all of the numerous stories posted here by many named individuals of the year long wait to receive their orders and the near 100% refusal of BS to make adjustment for manufacturing defects, BPM continues to defend its position in awarding BS this award. BPM refuses, thus far, to warn folks of the knowledge it has obtained regarding BS and continues to stand behind it’s decision to promote the reliability of BS to the backpacking community through it’s magazine. This seems to be a risky course for BPM in as much as it now has knowledge of the shakiness of BS. Liability for refunds and other damages to those who rely on BPMs endorsement could very conceivably extend to BPM and the individuals at the magazine responsible for the award and who now continue to defend the award. The focus has been on BS throughout these various threads here whereas, I believe, more light should be spotted on BPM. Without BPMs ill conceived award, the marketplace would, in all likelihood, take care of the ills of BS.

I can honestly say that the Big Sky tent is the lightest I've ever carried. In fact, it feels like it's not even there. :-)

John, Don, et al,

I started taking BPM when it first came out. Within a few years it was evident that they took the "easy trail" more and more. I finally let my subscription lapse. It wasn't worth the money. My significant other used to work in health care and they got BPM for the waiting room. She'd bring home a stack every once in a while. She now works in the petrochemical industry and I don't miss the magazine at all. Shallow is the adjective that comes to mind. Just MHO. Reminds me of an office manager I used to work for. His unspoken philosophy was: "An ounce of image is worth a pound of performance."

Yeah Don, the zero weight factor will be hard to beat. I agree Dennis and have decided not to renew as well. However that decision had already been made since finding this forum.

I should probably add that I'm actually psyched about the tent finally showing up. I had a loaner for a while last year and it was a great tent, light enough to be easy to carry but still strong enough for some (non-mountaineering) winter use.

Don,

Did your loaner have Silnet stripes across the floor and was one of the vent "props" broken? If so it may be the same loaner I had. It leaked in a Sierra thunder shower. And the fly didnt fit quite right.

"Did your loaner have Silnet stripes across the floor and was one of the vent "props" broken? If so it may be the same loaner I had. It leaked in a Sierra thunder shower. And the fly didnt fit quite right."

Denis:

I'm guessing we had different loaners. I certainly don't remember any Silnet stripes on the bottom, or a broken prop. I think it noted some wear on one corner, but that was it. I had it last winter, returned it in last May.

I see Bob was at Trails Days as I was looking at the photos in another thread. Did anyone approach him about why he has problems with filling orders? There were 3 on display. Maybe those will be 'loaners' to keep his paid customers silent.

In the newest BP magazine? I was at the library, two days ago and the newest was in. In the LTTE, there was a person who had wrote in (who I suspect posts here or on TLB!) and the editor at BPM basically brushed them off that in essence all startups have issues.
What a load of you know what! If you can't fulfill your orders, don't put them up for sale!

I wish that BPM would quit taking his back!

You actually admit to reading Backpacker , Sarah? Your BPL ranking may be at risk. :-)>

Seriously, I think that both Backpacker and Outside magazines have done the consumer an extreme disservice re. the Big Sky debacle in that they have both heavily promoted BS (?) (!!) Tents while being cognizant of the complaints. I had sent both periodicals letters regarding this—they were not published.

Is Kristin Hostetter, the Gear Editor of BPer, who occasionally posts here, still monitoring this issue?

Perhaps a petition is in order.

I love the Voltaire quote, above—-useful for so many occasions. :-P

Hey, I didn't BUY the magazine :-D

I also realized whatta loser I am, since all the cool kids actually pack in heavy pan sets and cook soup for dinner according to this month's issue.

Better go repack my pack before I leave in an hour and pack the apple sausages for my soup. (Yeah..I don't think so….)

On the other hand, I did notice someone got a tip published whose initials are J.K. Mr. Jason Klass I do presume ;-)

Hey folks,
To answer your question, Kevin, yes I do still monitor this forum.

My skin has become nice and thick listening to all the disparaging remarks thrown at the magazine that I am very proud to have worked at for the last 15 years. It’s seems to be so easy for people to make assumptions about our motives and intentions. Big sigh…I’m not gonna go there again and try to defend myself, or the fact that we gave BS an award. As I’ve said many times in the past, the tents rock, and that what the award was based on. We’ve acknowledged delivery problems and will continue to encourage the company to get with the program.

But this occurred to me today, as I was reading all these posts…you guys, meaning the people who post on this subject, have given Big Sky a helluva lot more press and publicity than we have at Backpacker. Kind of ironic, eh?

Kristin Hostetter
Gear Editor
Backpacker

Kristin:

Let me set this straight for you. We post continually about BS because we feel we need to warn fellow hikers — no thanks to the publicity you and your magazine provided to this crooked company. You wrote, "the tents rock, and that's what the award was based on". Is that really all that matters? Seriously???

Aside from your tiresome repetition that you are "monitoring the situation" — what updates have you gotten? It's way past "early Spring" — BS has obviously not changed — will you therefore be providing your readers with any updates — given the publicity YOU gave that company?

Perhaps you are "monitoring" BS the same way as you "monitor" LiteIsRight — basically DOING NOTHING??? Hopefully, you have learned from these repeated mistakes, and have finally begun to develop some degree of professional skepticism and judgment going forward!?!

Sorry to offend Benjamin. With snide remarks coming at me (and my work) left and right, I guess I got sucked in. If I were truly professional, I probably wouldn’t be continually engaging in these discussions, as I don’t see many other professional editors jumping in. My passion steamrolls what professionalism I do have, every time. Guilty as charged.
-Kristin

My turn to apologize. I re-read and corrected my post to move it away from an attack on your snide remark and back to the issue of BS itself. But you beat me to it… Sorry.

Please believe me that I have NO axe to grind against BS (or anybody else). My frustration is simply that a crooked company is getting away with blatant and repeated lying's to the buying public — and your magazine gave it a big helping hand!

Do you notice that NO OTHER COMPANY even comes close to being hounded this way? Please accept these as a clear indication of "extraordinary frustration" with BS and do more than just "monitoring". Thanks.

Kristen, most of the remarks "thrown at Backpacker" on BPL and TLB have been rather good natured—although BPer does have the 800 lb. gorilla reputation that comes with being the largest editorial concern focussed on backpacking. Goliaths (even the smaller ones) always have a few stones cast at them.

What sticks in some of our craws, Kristen, is that there has not been aknowledgement (or thus runs the perception) in print in your magazine about the BS issue. Thick skins are not what are required but truly listening to the readership and the greater backpacking community (even our rather small, but growing part of that community). A little self-reflection by the Backpacker editorial staff on ethical responsibility may be in order. Not that I accuse you or your fellow staffers of being unethical, merely that sometimes things get out of whack in any institution of mass communication.

Contrary to what you think, Big Sky does not need the negative publicity it is receiving on these forums from the not a few people who have complained about BS' customer service—search the archives on this issue on these 2 forums. They go back a ways. This is only one relatively new thread of several on this subject.

Let the dialogue continue. I hope, Kristen, that you continue to participate in this thread and on this forum in general.

I have to agree with Ben on this. Sorry Kristin, this no attack on you. Big Sky has a quite dubious reputation in the customer service stakes. Many people have ordered tents and a year later are still waiting. That is wrong. Yes it looks like a great product, but how long should someone wait for their tent? On this site as well as The Lightweight Backpacker we have been trying to warn others of their unusual business practices. When I first saw the tent I had love at first sight. I thought this would be the be all end all for tents for me in ski touring. NOT. Lucky for me, I never ordered one and instead opted for a Big Agnes SL3. Backpacker Magazine is ad driven. Most of the stuff that passes through that mag is based on money and what it can do for Backpacker. I do not think that they are capable of figuring out what is a reputable company even if it was biting them in the foot. I have discontinued my subscription to that mag and look forward to many grass roots start ups that actually take care of their customers appropriately ie Six Moon Designs, ULA, Mountain Laurel Designs, Gossamer and others.

Well said Kevin and Ben! Could not have said it better myself.

Glad that BPL users have been posting warnings about Big Sky (and the Thermojet). Two companies I will avoid doing business with.

My girlfriend's father had a copy of issue that had the BS tent award in it. I was thumbing through it when I saw the award and pointed out that the company had pretty much a vaporware product and people had been waiting over 6 months after paying. Her father said, "Why would they give an award to a company of crooks?"

Interestingly enough it was the last copy of Backpacker Magazine I've seen at his house.

Kristen –

Your comment about the "irony" of the extensive "press and publicity" here in BPL discussions among potential buyers of tents misses the side of the barn by country mile.

From the perspective of a company trying to sell tents to a customer who likes to receive an order as promised and in a timely fashion, as opposed to a hollywood celebrity trying to get as much name familiarity of any kind at any cost, there would seem to be a big difference between good "press and publicity" and bad "press and publicity" if if the tent company was trying to sell its tents rather than just appear on the cover of the National Inquirer for an expose of its shameful conduct.

JRS

I think threads like this serve an important public information function. Big Sky is an online company, and most people will search for info online before they buy. And as I said in the other thread, I disagree with backpacker magazine's decision to give the EC award, and think that was a mistake given the extensive reports of delivery problems.

But I think at least some of the attacks on BPM here are unfair. The reviews of BS tents here on BPL are also unqualified and completely positive and contain no warning about delivery problems. For example, BPL seems to describe the evolution 2p as the best, lightest tent on the market:

"Simply stated, it is the lightest, best designed, most user-friendly three-season two-person double-wall freestanding tent available."

It seems to me that this forum should also be concerned about the editorial policies of BPL as well. Maybe there is some reason why those reviews can't now be edited now to reflect the experience of the many users of this site and forum. But that seems like at least a serious a problem as anything written at BPM. I would rely on the reviews here more than a cursory award if I was shopping for a tent.

Intro/Disclosure:
My goal is to offer a perspective from my observations that may help some posters here process their feelings about Big Sky and BPM.

Info:
1: From the postings at various sites, about 15 separate individuals have said they had/have a problem with BigSky. Of those, very few- if any, have stated they clearly asked (or tried to contact BS to specifically ask) for a refund and did not get one. The vast majority have only stated delivery issues and / or communication issues and not refund issues. Late deliveries or bad commo is one thing, but if you are truely upset, then focus on the refund issue.
2: BPM Editor Kristen has responded numerous times in a measured, personal and informative way on this forum. Her effort is unusual in most of publishing and it is to her credit. Most editors would simply ignore contributing to anything outside their own publication.
3: By all information BPM gave out an award in good faith. They can not be expected to know all the details or research every product/company they review or write about before publication. They have given out many awards over the years. Is this the first anyone has challenged as bad on a company reputation/delivery/ refund issue? That's an impressive battting average by any standard.

Observations:
1: Most folks who paid for a tent and did not get one should be able to recoup the money from their credit card protection policies. I’m very sorry for the ones who can not.
2: If your goal here is to relate to others your issues about any gear company, it would be more effective to eliminate all extra chaff from your posts and keep it short and to the facts. Beyond that, it can look like a wild forum mob and credibility drops quickly. Too many posts longer than a couple sentences on this type topic may be too much and many non BPL regulars may not bother to read them. By all means post them, just keep it straight forward and clear.
3: The volume of individual postings is small if viewed on a big scale. One can only speculate on Big Sky’s order and successfull/unsuccessfull delivery volume. In light of this, any expectation of BPM, BPL or any publication to perform any consumer alert is unwarranted. They must operate and publish at a level far beyond forum debate. It may not be possible, and may be too expensive for them to pursue and publish it. Keep in mind this is not an issue that threatens life/limb or involves great sums of money that harshly affect anyones lives.

Big Picture:
1: Don’t let your hard feelings for any equipment purchase consume you and make you bitter. Lingering bitterness is much higher price to pay. Try to heal and move on.
2: It takes a village…. BPM publishes a quality magazine and I believe the editors there are good people. (I base my perception on the fact that articles overwhelmingly focus on the positive and not “who can we skewer this month” type stories. The articles are also focused on their readership community interests and not designed to create super human hiking heros to sell gear.) The fact that there exists a BPM with large readership is a HUGE plus to the outdoor community and environmental movement. There can be no doubt their readership is more aware and politically active than the average citizen and this may be (to me at least) their most important editorial function: To be part of creating, linking and sustaining a community who love the outdoors and wild places, to be a branch on the tree we all here are a part of. I would much rather they use their resources to further that agenda than be gear police.

****** Publishing Trivia Quiz *******
Question: What’s the most powerful thing an individual can do to effect change at any publication? (Surprise: It’s not to cancel their subscription….)
Answer: Send them your well thought out ideas for positive stories that help shape the editorial content. Good story ideas are the most critical and valuable part of any publication and overworked editors will use good ideas where ever they can get them.