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Synthetic sleeping bags – best weight to warmth ratio

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Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 29 total)
German Tourist BPL Member
PostedMar 16, 2012 at 5:28 am

I am planning a 2 months long winter trip in Southeast US (Pinhoti, BMT and Southern AT). According to the temperature charts I will have to expect temps below freezing at night, sometimes even down to single digits.

This will be a long trip in humid conditions with little possibilities of drying a down bag and therefore I have decided to carry a synthetic bag for this trip. (I own WM down bags that would suit the temperature range, but after lots of bad long term experiences with down I really want to use a synthetic bag for this trip.)

After doing research here on BPL I have come up with these options:

TNF Cat's Meow
MH Ultralamina 15
Montbell Super Spiral Burrow

All those bags are rated around 15 F and weigh about the same. I am afraid that 15 F might not be quite adequate for my winter trip, but the next warmer bags rated around 0 F already weigh a lot more – and are a lot bulkier. I could not find bags rated in between.

I am still lacking experience when it comes to synthetic bags so I am not quite sure what insulation material and construction is best.

Which of those bags would you recommend and why?
Are there other suitable bags I have overlooked?

Thanks for any input and suggestions,
Christine

James holden BPL Member
PostedMar 16, 2012 at 10:44 am

I own and use the cats meow, its 1250g and en rated to 23f/34f for the newer versions

The advantage of it over the ultralamina is the full zip and the low price you can get it for, around 120-130$ … The ultralamina is en-rated to 19f/30f

No one knows how true the mbs are to their rating as they dont en-rate their bags

However if you are female and want to hit 15f, you may well need to use a much warmer bag overall as the 15-20f rating is for men

Curry BPL Member
PostedMar 17, 2012 at 2:58 am

I have this bag and it's very warm and comfortable. It's not UL, but for the price it's a very nice bag. However, if you're willing to spend more, there are a lot of UL options, especially if you'd like to try using a quilt instead of a bag.

German Tourist BPL Member
PostedMar 17, 2012 at 6:54 am

Susan, I do not mind spending more, but I don't see what Ul option you are refering to. I could not find any SYNTHETIC quilt that is rated down to 15 F or lower…. if you know a quilt like that, please let me know.
Christine

PostedMar 17, 2012 at 8:01 am

Mountain hardwear ultralamina insulation is a cold bag by 15 to 20 degrees plus it breaks down fast. So stay away from the MH sleeping bags. I had one and my brother had one.
Terry
Ps: Ken thanks for the spell check I corrected the mistake.

Ken Thompson BPL Member
PostedMar 17, 2012 at 8:18 am

I see that they have all their bags listed as new this year. Also showing EN ratings for most.

BTW. it's Hardwear Terry

J-L BPL Member
PostedMar 17, 2012 at 8:42 am

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Enlightened Equipment's synthetic quilts. Tim makes two different versions, one with a breathable nylon shell and one with a cuben fiber shell:

http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/prodigy.html

http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/epiphanyapex.html

They come in 35, 25, and 15 degree ratings. Perhaps you could try his 25 or 35 degree synthetic quilt inside a lighter synthetic sleeping bag to help control drafts? Or maybe he could sew up his 15 degree version into a zip-bag?

PostedMar 17, 2012 at 9:24 am

Its been along time since Ive used a synthetic bag I used to own a cats meows back when they were polargaurd HV. I really hope the synthetics have improved. I would be leary of a stretchy synthetic bag. Since synthetic is not a loose fill. My thoughts are that a bag that the shell stretches would be hard on any insulation that is woven or batts. Dont know much about excelloft just spewing out thoughts

German Tourist BPL Member
PostedMar 17, 2012 at 9:45 am

John, thank you so much for the "enlightenment". It had eluded me that Enlightened Equipment is also selling synthetic quilts – and who the owner of the company is ;-)

Researching the Enlightened synthetic quilts on BPL I could not find much about the 15 F synthetic quilts (Prodigy and Epiphany Apex). Has anyone used them and could give some feedback?

Christine

M B BPL Member
PostedMar 17, 2012 at 10:07 am

My son has an MH ultralamina 15. Its EN is 30 comfort/19 limit . He has slept comfortably 22-30 F at least half dozen times, never had a complaint that he was even cool. (I ask after every cold night ) At ~40F he complained he was almost too hot. Packs small for synthetic. weighs 40 oz (2.5 lb) on the nose w/o stuffsak

I have offered to get him a down bag but he really isnt interested, he likes his MH. He even took it to boy scout camp 2x in summer for 50 degree nights instead of a more lightly insulated cheaper bag. He says he just pulls it over him , or sleeps on top.

a new one in the store hanging has a lot of loft. His doesnt have nearly as much, but its warm nonetheless, and very water repellent. If I get in it in 65F house Im sweating in a couple minutes. In the house, I have to be in my 30F down bag for at least 20-30 min before I start to feel sweaty hot. Theres more to the heat retention here than just "loft" apparently. Breathability may play here too, dont know.

The dual side zips are a pain because cannot open up and use in quilt modem, and are pretty easy to snag if arent careful. The solution is to just be careful.

MH designed this bag for Appalachian Trail use, where a synthetic bag was wanted and wanted to be able to put hands out to cook or such. They missed the mark, it would be a MUCH better bag with a full zip that let user extend the temp range.

It can also be gotten dirt cheap right now on clearance. Like close to $100 with additional 35% off coupon from sierra trading post.

Stephen M BPL Member
PostedMar 17, 2012 at 10:35 am

Hi Christine,

This may not be of any help to you but a two bag (or quilt) approach may be a good option, a lightweight down quilt and a lightweight synethetic on the outside.

Cheers,

Stephen

German Tourist BPL Member
PostedMar 17, 2012 at 10:44 am

Stephen, I have thought about a 2 bag approach a lot, but I cannot see the advantage. Two bags, even a combination of down and synthetic, will be at least as bulky and heavy as a single warm synthetic bag. It might be more versatile, but I will be hiking in cold and wet conditions all the time. I also do not mind buying a specific bag or quilt for that purpose as I will be using it a lot on this trip.
So what would be the advantage of a two bag approach? With two bags you have the weight of two shells instead of one, so it will be heavier no matter what. Please correct me if I am wrong – I do really look for some new input as long trips in wet and cold conditions is something new for me.
Christine

PostedMar 17, 2012 at 10:55 am

German tourist, do not trust the new commercial bag ratings, especially not the northface ones.

They list the lower en comfort ratings, and, having made the mistake of picking up two northface synthetics, because of the attractive weight, without research, the orion (20 degree, allegedly, and the lynx, 40 degree allegedly), I can assure you that the current nf bags aren't even remotely close to their alleged ratings. The lynx is lucky to keep you warm at 50+, I wouldn't even put the orion to the test, but judging by the loft, 35 degrees would be roughly realistic. Those lower ratings mean what keeps you from dying of cold, not any sensible notion of comfort.

I have an old northface cats meow, made long before their current owners bought them, and it is a wonderful, albeit 4 pound bag, that to this day I'd be comfortable in I think to 20, it even has a fuzzy liner, but it's huge, the old polarguard stuff.

That bag has far more loft than their new ones, even being as old as it is, and the fuzzy liner must add a good 5 or more degrees as well. So there's simply no way the new cats meows can be 20 degrees, maybe 30 realistically, I don't know, and I will never test anything made by them again unless I get it for a tiny fraction of its retail price, that being what it's now worth.

Northface is owned by some faceless outdoor gear conglomerate now, I'd remove them permanently from any gear options, personally I'm disgusted by their blatantly fraudulent ratings, and am stuck with two bags I'll be lucky to sell at any price. Buyer beware. I bought them not realizing how profoundly their corporation had changed values, now I know.

Look at the cottage guys as suggested, figure out how much loft you need, and talk to them, if you want a bag vs quilt, which I think is smart for your needs, maybe one of them can meet your needs.

Anyone want to buy one of these bags, I'll sell them very cheap, 80 each, basically unused?

PostedMar 17, 2012 at 10:55 am

Just keep your fleece handy while you're sleeping. If it gets too cold just add another layer of clothes………………..

Stephen M BPL Member
PostedMar 17, 2012 at 11:33 am

Christine,

My thinking is that a lightweight 45F synthetic overbag with a 20F quilt inside it would be about the same weight as a 32F synethetic bag. The quilt is providingng most of the warmth, while the overbag absorbs any moisture and drys quickly, and stops drafts.

German Tourist BPL Member
PostedMar 17, 2012 at 12:58 pm

Stephen, it is really difficult to tell what combination results in what temperature, but your weight estimation is not entirely correct. Here is the weight comparison for the combination you have suggested and in order to compare apples with apples I have always used Ultralamina bags.

Ultralamina 32 F: 1,33 kg

Ultralamina 45 F: 0,70 kg
Prodigy 15 F: 0,92 kg
Combined weight: 1,62kg (290 gr = 10 oz more)

Ultralamina 45 F: 0,70 kg
Prodigy 25 F: 0,76 kg
Combined weight: 1,46 kg (130 gr = 5 oz more)

If you assume that a combo of 45 F overbag and 20 F quilt is warmer than 32 F than the comparison becomes more favourable. But still, an Ultralamina 0 F weighs only 1,53 kg which is still 100 gr lighter than the 45F/15F combo.

But the big question is: What temperature rating does the combo result in?
Overbag 45 F + Quilt 15 F = ?

Stephen M BPL Member
PostedMar 17, 2012 at 1:02 pm

I was more thinking of a 570g 20F Gooses feet quilt and Ultra Lamina 45F, combined weight 1270g.

I would hope that combo would be far warmer than a 32F synthetic bag.

German Tourist BPL Member
PostedMar 17, 2012 at 1:13 pm

Stephen, what is a 20 F gooses feet quilt? I tried to google it, but could not find anything.

Stephen M BPL Member
PostedMar 17, 2012 at 1:22 pm

Hi Chistine,

Gooses is a one man operation run by BPL Member Ben Smith.

He has made the following custom sized kit for me.

Trousers (216g weight, 100g 750fp down)
Parka (450g, 250g 900down, box wall constuction)
Booties & Mitts (50g weight for each pair and about 20g 750fp down)

I have a 6 foot quilt on the way that 55inches wides and has 390g of 900fp down.

His website is https://goosefeetgear.com/

Cheers,

Stephen

German Tourist BPL Member
PostedMar 17, 2012 at 1:28 pm

This has been a misunderstanding. I am looking for synthetic bags and quilts only – the one you suggested is down. But an interesting link anyways…

Dustin Short BPL Member
PostedMar 17, 2012 at 3:28 pm

Christine, you're comparison isn't what Stephen was talking about. He was advocating using a down quilt, not a synthetic quilt, inside of the ultralamina 45 F.

So looking at Enlightened's down products you have the epiphany and revelations. We'll go with the revelation x since it's a worst case weight scenario and a solid value ("X" uses cosmetic 2nd quality 1.1 oz nylon vs 1st quality 0.9oz ripstop to offer an entry priced product).

MH UL 45F: 700g
Revelation X 20F w/ 30% overfill: 673g
Total: 1373g (40g = 1.5oz more)

And thats with a bare minimum temp of 20F just from the inner quilt (if you're a warm sleeper the 30% probably gets you closer to 15F or lower, but since you're female we'll go conservative and say 20F). The 45F synthetic should easily add 5-10F. The synth bag can also probably double as a bivy (in winter bug netting won't be necessary) saving you another 4+ oz if you're using a tarp/bivy setup although if you use an inflatable pad that weight savings may be mitigated by wanting a CCF groundsheet for thorn and moisture protection.

The picture is similar if you go with a warmer rated or colder rated inner quilt. The inner quilt temp rating will be your baseline with the synth over bag mainly providing security for wet conditions.

There are plenty of variations on this theme (synth quilt over down bag, two quilts) but the key is to have a synth outer and down inner layer the way I see it.

PostedMar 17, 2012 at 3:43 pm

Christine

I am no guru and I realize you are talking about a long trip and such but its my understanding that what stephen is suggesting should not only be LIGHTER than a full on synth bag but might perform better over time and be more flexible.
I have posted this before but take a look at http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/double_up

Andy is a serious climber and has been through some gnarly $hit so i assume if he says it works it does. He is also a pretty friendly guy and i have emailed with him in the past – maybe you can shoot him an email about his thoughts

Mike

PostedMar 17, 2012 at 9:24 pm

What Stephen suggests makes a lot of sense at the colder temps as the dew point is moved outside of the down inner by the presence of the synthetic outer.

Dew point = that zone inside the bag where the humid air is cooling enough to condense. Ideally this would be the skin of your tent. However at lower temps this moves much closer and can become inside your sleeping bag.

A standard approach using down is simply more down with a bigger distance between inner and outer skins, but as the down does its insulating job means the temperature where human sweat is condensing moves with a thicker down to somewhere inside the down itself where it then freezes and accumulates, reducing insulation progressively nightly.

What Stephen is suggesting is not using as much down but a bit less and layering over with synthetic. This will move the zone where the dew point is into the synthetic overlayer. The down will experience far less temperature difference between its inner and outer faces, as the synthetic overlayer is insulating, and the outer layer of the inner down bag is still above the dew point, the vapor then passes to the synthetic overlayer. Synthetic has far less insulation per unit (of anything, distance, weight, you name it) so the dew point is forced into the synthetic from where it condenses, freezes but synthetic is not reducing its insulation anything like as much as the down plus the synthetic is allowing the down under it to stay so warm (practically body temperature) it never gets wet.

Stephen is also pointing out any wet from external sources will touch the synthetic, protecting the down under.

The counter argument is also interesting, each layer of a unit item is adding 2 layers of non-insulating fabric of little value.

I do my own kind of that theory, I didn't for colder situations go with a thicker single down item but I over-layer the down with synthetics I "throw" over the top, its a little more precise than that, I use a synthetic vest I zip over the mummy foot section, encouraging the coldest part of the down bag (the foot section) where condensation will be maximum, to pass its moisture to the synthetic overlayer. Think about that – the synthetic gilet over the foot of the sleeping bag is making the temperature at the boundary, the outer layer of the sleeping bag warmer – that reduces the probability water will be condensing inside the sleeping bag. That works to boost a down sleeping bag into colder temps but as the net additional insulation is slight, is only a basic hack. For a more lower-temp hack, I recently bought a 2nd down bag. It is overlayering an inner down bag, the inner down bag has a waterproof breathable outer layer. If the dew point theory is correct, the outer down bag will have the dew point somewhere inside it and the outer down bag will become water-saturated, probably ice forming, and run-back later which may get back to the inner down bag will be liquid water and run off the outer layer of the inner bag. The outer bag night-after-night will become less-warm but it won't be as intrusive as if the two separate bags were one bag.

Those people who are considering moving to synthetics from down due to accumulating damp issues, might wish to consider dew point and hacks to move it to outside of their sleeping bag by throwing over some light synthetic insulating items.

My most recent synthetic insulation has been bought with a little of this hack in mind, my last synthetic over-trousers, they unzip into something I can place over the middle section of my down sleeping bag and my last jacket also with this in mind. The synthetic items are no additional weight, I'm wearing them at times during the day, typically inactive times outside the tent. The same idea would be using down clothing OUTSIDE the down sleeping bag.

There are downsides to think about using synthetics over down. One is in general synthetic is at least twice the volume and weight as down for a given amount of insulation, that will tend to drive BPL towards down. However if you tend to move your synthetic decisions toward clothing and focus your down decisions towards sleeping it will tend to minimize the weight and make your clothing more rain-friendly. The guess is the 24hour period has above-freezing rainy conditions followed by below-freezing sleeping conditions?

PostedMar 17, 2012 at 9:51 pm

Call me cheap, but I'd just use trash bags as a vapor barrier and stick with the WM down bags.

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 29 total)
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