Red meat is killing you

Here's the link to the study. Skeptics can see it for themselves: http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/archinternmed.2011.2287

As for Luke's questions:
1. Did they adjust for factors other than red meat (exercise, other dietary concerns, lifestyle etc.).
Yes

2. Also who did the study? Are they reputable or do they have an agenda?
Folks from the Harvard School of Public Health. I have no idea who they are.

3. I'm pretty sure political considerations to cloud the judgement of the USDA at times BUT not always. Lots of people with unpopular theories say "the government/fill in the blank industry, have covered this up." Maybe, or maybe the theory these people are pushing just isn't widely accepted.
I'm not sure what the USDA has to do with this. But if you're referring to what I said about confirmation bias, you're proving my point.

Part of the study consisted in participants filling out questionairs on their habits and behavior.

I don't think any study is going to be perfect, or 100% conclusive. But start browsing through the references here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_meat

When numerous studies with different methodologies and different populations find links to cancer, heart disease diabetes, premature death, they're probably on to something.
This most recent study probably has some flaws, but it corroborates what we already know.

Bovinea flatulence is causing global warming.

To clear things up
I said – "I'm pretty sure political considerations to cloud the judgement of the USDA at times BUT not always. Lots of people with unpopular theories say "the government/fill in the blank industry, have covered this up." Maybe, or maybe the theory these people are pushing just isn't widely accepted.

Scott said – "I'm not sure what the USDA has to do with this. But if you're referring to what I said about confirmation bias, you're proving my point."

Scott I was refering to Ben's suggestion that the bad affects of meat were covered up due to lobbying pressure. That might be true, I don't know if its documented or not. Its also possible the facts on how bad meat is just weren't enough to convince the officials.

For the record I have no special attachment to red meat. If someone really convinces me its bad I'll stop eating it.

Ok, so what? 68% of Americans are overweight to begin with. What % of those involved in the research were overweight or obese? This study used a large group of individuals in a country that struggles with moderation, specifically food.

What preexisting health risks and behavioral patterns did individuals have over the course of the research and how did it impact the research? Were they active? Not just occasionally dropping in to the gym once a week, but a real cultivated lifestyle of physical activity.

What would the outcome be if the researchers took a similar test group size of consistently ACTIVE individuals and conducted the same study?

I would think the risk factor of red meat would decrease significantly.

"Bovinea flatulence is causing global warming."

Indeed.

Which means red meat is safe but grains aren't. At least if you don't want to kill everyone.

Since I posted about confirmation bias a couple of hours ago, there have been at least 5 more posts that prove my point (Luke, that includes you since there's plenty of evidence that red meat is bad for you. You're just not open to it.).

Eat whatever you want. Believe whatever you want. The facts will remain the same.

Some of the Paleo type blogs are weighing in. Honestly I need to brush up on my High School biology before I wade into their arguments but they are out there if you want to look them up. No I'm not a Paleo eater, I just went there to get to see what kind of argument they had. To much technical jargin for me to wade through so I have no idea whether they're blowing smoke or not.

I looked at the actual study and found this toward the end

"Subjects who consumed more red meat tended to be married, more likely of non-Hispanic white ethnicity, more likely a current smoker, have a higher body mass index, and have a higher daily intake of energy, total fat, and saturated fat, and they tended to have lower education and physical activity levels and lower fruit, vegetable, fiber, and vitamin supplement intakes"

Sounds like a bunch of typical beer bellied Americans to me. I may not know all the ins and outs of transfats but I'd be much more convinced if they'd controlled for smoking, obesity and things like that.

They controlled for smoking, obsesity, etc. Read the whole paper before commenting, please.

Read up on the McGovern commision
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_Select_Committee_on_Nutrition_and_Human_Needs

In January 1977, after having held hearings on the national diet, the McGovern committee issued a new set of nutritional guidelines for Americans that sought to combat leading killer conditions such as heart disease, certain cancers, stroke, high blood pressure, obesity, diabetes, and arteriosclerosis.[2][10][11] Titled Dietary Goals for the United States, but also known as the "McGovern Report",[10] they suggested that Americans eat less fat, less cholesterol, less refined and processed sugars, and more complex carbohydrates and fiber.[11] (Indeed, it was the McGovern report that first used the term complex carbohydrate, denoting "fruit, vegetables and whole-grains".[12]) The recommended way of accomplishing this was to eat more fruits, vegetables, and whole grains, and less high-fat meat, egg, and dairy products.[2][11] While many public health officials had said all of this for some time, the committee's issuance of the guidelines gave it higher public profile.[11]

The committee's "eat less" recommendations triggered strong negative reactions from the cattle, dairy, egg, and sugar industries, including from McGovern's home state.[2] The American Medical Association protested as well, reflecting its long-espoused belief that people should see their doctor for individual advice rather than follow guidance for the public as a whole.[11] Some scientists also thought the committee's conclusions needed further expert review.[2] Others felt that the job of promulgating recommendations belonged to the Food and Nutrition Board of the National Research Council.[9] Under heavy pressure, the committee held further hearings, and issued a revised set of guidelines in late 1977 which adjusted some of the advice regarding salt and cholesterol and watered down the wording regarding meat consumption.[2]

This isn't about this one study. This is about a long history of data showing meat is bad for you. And a long history of industry getting their way by throwing political tantrums.

Who wants those last 5 years of life any way? Those years are all miserable, why not just shave them off and have that nice taco from the street vendor? Joking.

Confirmation bias aside, the comments that seem most on point are those on moderation and caloric restriction. The argument for consuming less calories for life extension is solid and mounting, but you need to be comfortable with your own hunger for that to be an acceptable route.

Atkins, Veganism, Raw-only paleo… ETC. Extremes seem pretty, well, extreme. They may or may not be right, but they are extreme. It seems that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

Michael Pollan's best idea.

And street vendor tacos truly are the best. Seriously, don't just walk past without trying one. :)

Interesting story (I'm not surprised that poltics was involved) but they didn't really say "no red meat" as far as I can tell. Where are the studies that actually said "don't eat meat" or "No red meat?"

The politicians no doubt have a stake in it….

Scott, thanks for the link. I'd far rather read the report by the actual scientists than a journalist's take on it!

One thing I noted is that there is no indication in the actual report of including or analyzing the role of refined carbohydrates in all of this. This is an issue for a number of folks here, and I wish the Harvard folks had considered it.

I only try to be half -healthy. A trail run but then In-n-Out, red wine last night. I wonder how close I'm hittin' it?

It's not that "red meat is killing you"

It's that "corn fed red meat is killing you"

Cows were evolutionarily designed to eat grass. Their stomachs don't digest corn properly.

The ratio of Omega 3 to Omega 6 fatty acids in the meat are wrong, which makes them unhealthful for us to eat.

They need to do a study that compares grass fed beef to corn fed beef.

I have read about this in a book "Real Food" and other places also, but I don't totally believe it.

"Cognitive Dissonance" – my favorite two words

nm

The women were in the study were all nurses. The men were all "health professionals"(dentists, veterinarians, pharmacists, optometrists, osteopathic physicians, and podiatrists).

I don't go by studies. Why? Over 70% are funded by pharmaceutical companies that are hoping for a favorable outcome(for their drug) from the get-go.

Just eat what our ancestors ate prior to the age of health dogma. Studies are nearly alway's wrong or they confirm the obvious.

"Just eat what our ancestors ate prior to the age of health dogma."

They have Mammoths in your parts?

>The women were in the study were all nurses. The men were all "health professionals"(dentists, veterinarians, pharmacists, optometrists, osteopathic physicians, and podiatrists).

That means diddly. Just because they work in the health field doesn't make them healthy people. There are doctors smoke. Dentists who drink. Nurses who eat inordinate amount of carbs. Pharmacists who are overweight. Etc.

Bacon!

So blessed ignorance is the solution?

"Sadly, this is the same reasoning that allows people to believe all sorts of demonstrably untrue things: that Obama is a Muslim, that 9/11 was an inside job, that Iraq had WMDs. "

Yeah, confirmation bias is why we have lots of things, I can certainly catch myself demonstrating it at times. I'll bet we all can. But I'd point out that questioning results is not necessarily dismissing them outright. After all, isn't that what a good scientist does, and what advances science? You just need to question the results you like as fervently as you question those you don't like. So I think we agree.

But to the matter at hand, I'm not sure one can easily define "premature death." I have an issue with that phrase itself. Our bodies break down, we die. Something, at some time, is going to break down and we're going to die. We can use average life spans, I guess, to judge certain things against, but our bodies, while sharing basic characteristics and genes, are also very unique.

I have no doubt, actually, that red meat can help something break down earlier than it might otherwise. But then, I think that anything we put into our bodies can help something break down, while at the same time helping other parts of our complicated system thrive. The difficulty becomes balancing whatever positive effects against whatever negative effects, taking in to account intangibles like pleasure and enjoyment and such. It could drive you batty.

So I'm with some of the other posters – most things in moderation, stay active, and above all, be happy. I think the last thing does more to ensure an enjoyable long life than just about anything else.

And as far as premature death: as I've said many times before, breathing ain't living. I'm not here to breathe as long as I can, I'm here to live as long as I can. And only I can define living for me – not some politician, not some religion, not some health advocate, not some special interest group, etc. etc. So when I'm no longer living, by my definition, I'll do whatever is necessary to ensure I stop breathing as well, prematurely or not.

Scott S wrote, "I love these kinds of discussion threads because they exhibit one of the most interesting psychological traits that people show: confirmation bias. Basically, when people have a belief, they tend to accept evidence that supports their belief, but they reject evidence that contradicts it. So, folks who think that eating meat is okay find reasons to think that this study is BS.

Sadly, this is the same reasoning that allows people to believe all sorts of demonstrably untrue things: that Obama is a Muslim, that 9/11 was an inside job, that Iraq had WMDs. "

I would add another 'American' phenomenon — the propensity of us Americans to file seemingly every issue into just one of two buckets — the extremes of either all black or all white!! Red meat kills. Cotton kills. LNT is another such issue that is too often taken to the extreme!

But life is full of options — and often complicated. Take in the studies by all means — then apply judiciously to your lives. Strike a balance that works for you. And worry less about others.