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Orange thingy on JB sol ti
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Feb 24, 2012 at 11:56 pm #1844554
Actually, yeah now that you mention it, it does have a nice ring to it. :) (patent pending)
I wasn't even trying to be clever I was mostly just upset since I'm now afraid to trust my $120 stove.Feb 25, 2012 at 12:08 am #1844557hey hamster, let me just throw this out to you…
I have had three of these darn things (sol ti) so far and this single one is the only one that has ever given me any problems. My first one got used an insane amount (I easily put over 3000 grams worth of fuel through it. My other one has around 1000 grams of fuel through it and its going strong. This other one, well, it was on its second 100gram canister before she went and became a Chinese hellfire on me.
If I were you I would go down and buy one of those massive 450gram canisters (which is only a couple bucks more than the 100gram canisters, which is just stupid – opps, another rant, sorry) and just turn the sucker on and let it burn all the way through (remember to not let it run out of water of course).
If she doesn't go all Apollo 13 on you in that first 450gram canister, take it with you on your hike!!!
(back to original topic, I have had a few people contact me telling me they have taken off the orange part and they have all confirmed the little wabble I mentioned, but nobody has said they found it to be an issue. so this is rocking awesome, a Jetboil Sol Ti that is now 0.7 ounces lighter!!)
Feb 25, 2012 at 1:16 am #1844567Hi John
FASCINATING!
Seems to me we could have TWO failures here. The first is the flux fins falling off: the welds failing. The fins are aluminium, spot welded to the titanium pot. This is not hard to imagine, because welding aluminium to Ti is not an easy task. (I have attempted it, and failed.) One wonders … was it made in China?But the second problem is actually more interesting for me, albeit far more frightening for customers. That column of flame above the stove – what caused that????
Hypothesis:
Basic idea: the aluminium fins are too thin for the job, plus they are often poorly welded to the Ti pot. This is a design fault, with Jetboil liable for whatever accidents happen.What then happens when you have the stove turned up to boil the water?
* some of the fins crack off the Ti pot
* the free-hanging fins get very hot since they are not transferring heat to the pot
* the overheated aluminium starts to melt
* drops of molten aluminium land on the gas canister
* the gas canister starts heading for 100 C
Note: the canisters are rated to 50 C and no more. Under test, I found they burst at 100 C. Hell of a bang!
* the overheated canister raises the internal gas pressure to enormous heights, pushing far more gas out the jet, creating a tall roaring column of flame
* the roaring flame now starts to melt the rest of the aluminium fins, which drip more molten aluminium onto the gas canister …Bottom line for me, if this hypothesis is correct (and the pics all support it):
Jetboil have created a very dangerous bomb in the making with the Sol, and it should be taken off the market immediately. Jetboil should issue an urgent product recall as well. Otherwise the lawyers are going to take Jetboil into bankrupcy when someone is injured. And someone WILL be injured, sooner or later, when a canister bursts.Cheers
Disclaimer: this is my personal opinion, based on all the stove testing and design work I have done. BPL has nothing to do with this opinion.Feb 25, 2012 at 2:57 am #1844579Sounds like that one would be better of with the full aluminium version.
I wouldn't feel safe using the titanium version right now.Fortunately nobody was hurt.
Feb 25, 2012 at 5:52 am #1844591I just got one too.
So I'm lightening up from Trangia so my perspective is what is the hurry for boil times, plus one should never assume reliability on systems high-tech above Alcohol.
If you are selecting Jetboil, I suggest, bring a backup, the obvious one is Esbit.
Feb 25, 2012 at 7:15 am #1844609I think Roger is on the right track.
A couple other possibilities:
-Pressure regulator failed allowing excess fuel to flow, overheating and melting heat exchanger fins.
-Boil over superheated canister, dramatically increasing pressure which then overwhelmed pressure regulator, etc.Feb 25, 2012 at 7:45 am #1844622roger, sounds exactly right to me. I used to be a machinist in a fab shop that did a lot of welding as well. as soon as the ring becomes separate from the pot the heat will continue to build, just like a pot on your stove at home will eventually burn even on medium heat with nothing in it. The energy from that heat has to go somewhere, and in this case it looks like it all went into the aluminum.
The worst part is the hot aluminum dripping on the canister self perpetuating into a bomb as roger described.
by comparison, this makes those "dangerous" white gas stoves extremely safe. It'll be mayhem the first time some family cooks in the vestibule and the canister explodes.
NOT cool…
that said, it "seems" (just my opinion) the Sol AL should be a good choice as the pot should be just as reliable and safe as the standard jetboil.
Feb 25, 2012 at 8:08 am #1844630"that said, it "seems" (just my opinion) the Sol AL should be a good choice as the pot should be just as reliable and safe as the standard jetboil."
Exactly. Plus it's cheaper. The flux ring is much more robust. Less than an ounce weight penalty. You probably are carrying more than that as dirt in the tread of your shoes. Let's be realistic here – nobody on earth can feel the difference of 1 ounce in their pack. Even if the chance of this happening is remote, it's not worth it in terms of cost, weight, safety, or stress.
Feb 25, 2012 at 8:16 am #1844640Wow…using this thing is starting to sound really scary…
All this really makes me want to get rid of the Ti pot and just get an aluminum one…
Maybe Jetboil will take note of all of this and do something about it…
Feb 25, 2012 at 8:37 am #1844655Would love to see a video of the failure and resulting fireball/explosion. Anyone game for some destructive testing? Safely of course.
Feb 25, 2012 at 9:10 am #1844672What's modifications, or removal of anything, or addition of anything were done to this stove prior to the meltdown?
the boiling point of water goes up with the addition of salt. I am not sure how much salt content you had with the bouillon cube, or how much water etc. but that does change things. At any point prior to the meltdown was the pot used empty or with "real food" causing the welds to become suspect? My guess is that the welds are the most likely point of failure.
this could be a BIG problem, but there are also many other variables to the equation that need to be evaluated. I would like to have roger test a Sol Ti thoroughly and scientifically to see what the "real deal" is.
The main selling point for jetboil is the ease of use and reliability, the standard system has been used all over the world in many different environs. I would like to think that jetboil did significant testing before releasing the Sol Ti.
Feb 25, 2012 at 9:33 pm #1844928@Ben: What's modifications, or removal of anything, or addition of anything were done to this stove prior to the meltdown?
Hey Ben, read your post on this thread and the other one. On this specific Jetboil Sol Ti (the one that failed) it had zero modifications done to it. As explained in one of my posts this stove/pot had never been used for anything other than boiling water, and on occation a half cube of beef bouillon – think about the same amount as one of those little packets inside of a top ramen – but to be specific about what it is I used, it is this stuff, which contains around 30-40% less salt than standard bouillon, to address your questioning of how much salt potentially was in the water causing it.
In the end though, this right here is exactly the real issue:
drops of molten aluminium land on the gas canister
the gas canister starts heading for 100 C
the roaring flame now starts to melt the rest of the aluminium fins,
which drip more molten aluminium onto the gas canister
…and…We all know a possible outcome of that. Luckly nobody that has contacted me about having their Ti Pots fail has had this happen.
wow folks, sorry for taking this thread so far off-topic. It was fun while we were all talking about the stupid heavy orange thing getting taken off a jetboil.
I did it again Ken… so, bring the wet noodle by on Monday (along with your new toys of course) and I shall suffer the punishment coming to me for taking another thread off-topic :( (plus, I want a first person account of the trip!!)
Feb 26, 2012 at 6:28 am #1844974I wouldn't say you really took the thread off topic, you answered the OP's question immediately, not much more to discuss from there, cut the thing off if you want and be done with it, move on. No point in beating a dead horse.
One thing is for sure, you really must have cultivated some bad gear Karma owning three Jetboil Sol Ti's to have one go apocalyptic on you.
I'm more interested in understanding what the cause of the potentially faulty Jetboil Sol Ti was. Consider consolidating that information into a new thread so that people can learn more about it as you hopefully figure out what contributed to it failing. If indeed the stove failed catastrophically under completely normal using conditions then that is the kind of beta that should be made public for people to see readily and not buried off topic under a page or two of posts.
Feb 26, 2012 at 8:42 am #1845014Wow. Just this weekend I used mine in the vestibule of my tent, not sure what I would have done if it went off like that.
I have discoloration on the inside bottom of the pot, but none on at all on the outside. So far I've only put a bit over 100 grams of fuel through it, and I may be a bit nervous from here out.
On visual inspection it appears as though some of the fins are more fully welded than others, but all seem to be attached to some degree. Not sure how efficacious visual inspection would be at spotting problems before they're an issue, but then again, you shouldn't really have to be inspecting it after so little use.
Feb 26, 2012 at 9:19 am #1845033I think the real question is would the hellfire have happened if the you didn't take the stove apart. Maybe all the parts are needed.
Feb 26, 2012 at 9:23 am #1845037Anthony, as John stated above, he has owned several of these and the one that went nuts had no mods done to it.
Feb 26, 2012 at 10:34 am #1845076How do we get Jetboil customer service to see this thread?
Feb 26, 2012 at 10:36 am #1845077From what I know of how companies operate, they probably monitor this forum and others regularly. Protecting the brand is big business.
Feb 26, 2012 at 3:18 pm #1845231@ John,
yeah, cool. Just wanted to be sure and clear. The salt content would raise the temp, but it would take some real testing to see how much. I'm thinking the few degrees shouldn't much matter. The welds should be good to wayyyy above 212degF
after doing a little searching online i'm guessing it has mostly to do with the weld of the fins to the pot, not the regulator. Of course , once the canister is super heated, it will spew out flames. Note the different melting temps of Al and Ti. (Of course who knows what alloys they are using) Also, be aware of the different expansion rates of aluminum and titanium. Also note the general difficulty to weld these two very different metals together.
It seems the vast, and i mean VAST majority of these units work flawlessly. If I had one i would probably put a large canister through it in one lengthy trial and add quite a bit of salt to the water to get the boiling temp above any boiling temp you'd encounter in the wilderness and if it faired well through that test, I'd go ahead and use it.
That sucks about your solTi. Of course, since you seem to have a bunch of them hangin around, I'd gladly take one for um…. testing.
Feb 27, 2012 at 9:46 pm #1845985This is some really serious stuff. I wouldn't use the Ti version until this gets sorted out. The consequences of a canister explosion are too severe to tolerate. I'm surprised that JB hasn't really jumped on this. Companies that have handled a big problem well usually come out OK. Companies that try to avoid dealing with a problem usually wind up worse off.
Feb 27, 2012 at 10:40 pm #1845994So i've re-read the thread and there a few separate issues. I'm new to all stoves which aren't Trangia, I own for about 2 weeks the Jeboil Sol Ti so I'm concerned, but seeking to understand.
Firstly, the release of too much heat under pot must surely be the control mechanism of the stove itself? I know Jetboil claims the Sol variety has some kind of regulator to make a more constant flow and so that regulator must have developed a fault? That initiated the cascade failure and is the actual root cause of the fault.
Next, we must have one issue which is the Ti pot itself, being Ti is not conducting heat so any massive release of energy below has less chance of dumping energy into the pot, but to be honest the heat output is so large I don't this this aspect is significant.
Next, as the Flux ring clearly isn't Ti (how can it be, its melted) then you've basically put a pot which can't assist with conducting the heat away, welded to Alu which has a lower melting pot, with a stove with a faulty regulator?
So the disaster zone is the combination of all three, namely Jetboil's faulty regulator, with Alu fins with Ti pot? You then place this ontop of a pressurized canister who's melting point is low enough it can be dented by the metal dropping from above?
Did I understand this all correctly?
Next, I don't follow with the recommendation to burn a full canister through a Jetboil Sol Ti to see if its one of the faulty ones? Surely any unit can become faulty eventually with use? If the combination of problems above are true, then its not ultimately the pot's design which is the issue, it is the stove's lack of self-safety regulation? Surely the answer for safety is the stove needs to mechanically shut itself off when temperatures get too high? Low melting point valve regulator? Better hungry than dead?
I'm not making a statement, just trying to understand the cause, preventative approaches and how one should consider the risks.
As to Alcohol stoves. I control the risks by not being a dumb-ass. I can't control a pressurized canister with a possibly-faulty regulator. I can only cook away from my tent and sit staring at it constantly and if the small chance of China Syndrome, back away immediately.
So do we have a choice – fast / light / reliable pick 2 of 3?
Help me understand here.
Feb 28, 2012 at 12:00 am #1846006I had some time to kill tonight while waiting to pick up my wife, so I stepped into the local gear shop and compared a Sol Ti pot and a Sol Al pot. I should have taken pictures, but all I had was my camera phone (and I'm not sure how the store would feel having some guy with a macro lens photographing the bottom of some expensive pots).
Anyway, I noticed that the Ti pot that I was looking at had some pretty sloppy welding of the flux ring to the bottom. It was uneven and a little messy. It was also pretty clear to me that the flux ring and pot were different metals, just based on appearance. On the other hand, the Al pot had the flux ring stamped on or something like that (sorry, not my area of expertise). Where the ring contacted the pot, there were imprints in the metal. I saw no welding on the Al pot at all. It was nice and clean.
After looking at the Sol Ti pot in detail, I definitely don't think I'd trust it, even if it might still be fine. The Sol Al just isn't tempting enough for me yet.
Feb 28, 2012 at 7:32 am #1846056Nigel, the way i estimate this to happen, is that the welds are the first point of failure.
This means that the problem isnt with the regulator. The welds first break, thereby causing aluminum to drip onto canister causing excessive heat, which thereby causes flare-up, thereby causing more melting aluminum, thereby causing excessive heat, etc, etc.
If the first point of failure is the regulator, then the SolAl would be just as problematic as the SolTi. I've only found pics and videos online of issues starting with the fluxring coming loose from the pot on the SolTi pot. Honestly my guess would be that it comes from the expansion rates of the two alloys being different or the welds not being quality enough to handle the expansion and contraction of the aluminum fluxring.
Feb 28, 2012 at 7:36 am #1846059I've been lucky. Over 30 boils in temps ranging from about 22F to 50F and no issue. Blazing fast, no boil over (which I think is what caused the flame up) and no problem with the cozy. Must have got one of the good ones….(admittedly, I ordered direct from JetBoil so maybe there was a bad batch sent to REI?).
But again, 2 cased out of 1000's does not make a faulty product.
Feb 28, 2012 at 7:52 am #1846068Any product where the consequence of failure is fiery explosive death, even if the probability of it occurring is low, is probably worth worrying about.
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