Why am I freezing?

I'm a cold sleeper. Fleece socks help.
I have down booties but my feet are cold unless I wear both.

in addition to the Neoair, add a 2nd very thin pad inside the quilt like a
"GG Thinlight Insulation Pad 1/8"; the extra 2 oz is well worth it, it keeps you warm and toasty. It's suprising how much warmth this adds.

I had been under the impression that you get cold when having to pee is because is because your body has to expend energy to keep the urine at 98.6 degrees and diverts energy from keeping your extremities warm. Don't know where I heard that though.
I definitely think you need to supplement the neoair if it got down to freezing, and tucking the quilt is also extremely important.

> the impression that you get cold when having to pee is because is because your body
> has to expend energy to keep the urine at 98.6 degrees and diverts energy from
> keeping your extremities warm.
Myth, violates the laws of physics. But needing to go can make you move around and generate drafts.

The NeoAir was not warm enough, and I suspect that the dinner listed was grossly inadequate for two. Not enough food is always a problem for keeping warm.

Cheers

or just take some of these along?

apparently you can bury them just like p00p and they will biodegrade.

mark

here is my guess at what has happened based on the info, as much as i can without being there anyways

it is likely primarily caused by 3 factors

1. insufficient ground insulation … now i have used the neo air down to freezing alone just fine and lower with some heat loss, but i always fully inflate it … the R value of an inflatable pad is usually correlated with its inflation (as you are a member you can see mr caffins excellent SOTM report on inflatable pads) … thus yr partial inflation of the pad i suspect was part of the issue …also just as many people require different amounts of insulation to stay "warm", so does the need for ground insulation vary

2. quilt loft … the JRB sierra sniveler i believe is "rated" to 25-30F, this is not an en-rating, so im not sure how accurate it is … there have been other threads on BPL with people noticing the loss of loft and with yr comment amount minimal down on top … i suspect that the loft migrated from the top to the bottom over a few hours … this likely got you feeling cold as im pretty sure the rating is for a fully lofted quilt

3. im not sure how much calories or fat is in the dinner, but you want to eat high fat foods like cheese, sausage, etc before sleeping … and dont skimp on the calories either, yr body burns them while keeping warm … drink enough as well as you need to keep hydrated, dehyration makes one cold

and aggravated by …

4 getting up to take a piszz no doubt incurred some heat loss … but i would have done the same thing in the temps you described … holding yr bladder is worse IMO for sleeping warmth, yr expending the energy to hold it in

5 as to draft, what i mean is did you feel air coming in the sides of the quilt … if you did the quilt is not wide enough, or youd be better using a bag IMO …. if you didnt, this doesnt apply

solutions … i recommend these in order based on their effectiveness and minimal investment IMO

1. get a cheap foam pad (blue pad or a foam thermarest) and put it under/over the neo air … this should effectively solved yr pad issues down to at least 15F or so ,,, minimal cost

2. drink and eat enough before sleeping … i eat salami myself, and alot of it … make sure it got fat content in there

3. you can get a piszz bottle if you want, mountaineers will take a pizz in the bottle inside their bag/tents and then use it as a hot water bottle …. however at the temps you described a hawt nalgene would be better IMO … just fill it with near boiling water when cooking and stuff it in yr bag/quilt wrapped in something right away … itll prewarm the bag for you and keep you warm for awhile … be careful not to melt/burn anything though …

4. if migrating down is an issue or you feel drafts coming in the sides (quilt not wide enough) … consider a wider quilt or a properly en-rated sleeping bag … the en-ratings give you a decent amount of confidence that the bag will be warm enough for the "average" person, whether you fit that mold is a question i cant answer … also if the rest of the things here dont work youll simply need a warmer bag

as a side note and not as a dig to anyone … i keep on mentioning the importance of technique repetitively … gear itself will only get you so far

heres a few links on techniques and sleeping bag ratings

http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/maximising_your_bags_warmth

http://www.mammut.ch/images/Mammut_Sleep_well_pt1_E.pdf

hope this helps … be sure to report back what solutions work for you

Good comments so far. I would look at the mat and the food issue first before laying money into a whole new system. I took a class at rei on basic survival skills and one tip the guy mentioned was to eat chocolate if he was cold at night. Careful of bears with that one though.

If you have netflix I highly recomend the survival show done by Ron Hood. It's basically a teaser to get you to order full videos but in it he goes into detail about how to keep warm at night. Just putting your tent under a tree or near a southern facing rock can create a microclimate that is warmer then the surrounding area. Good luck on your trip.

I have found that I am colder when I am dehydrated. Try drinking more water throughout the day and try to stay away from caffeine in the evening.

just to add one point i missed in the above post …

yr hat is a fleece hat … once temps fall below freezing, something beefier may be in order … not an issue with a bag, but definitely something to look out for with a quilt …

someone with more knowledge than me can comment better … but i believe that as you get colder towards hypothermia, the amount of heat loss through yr head increases dramatically …

i generally use and recommend puffies with hoods for this reason

Eric's point about the hat is important. I think you want to overdo it here. You want to have at least one warm hat, or maybe even two. Or else one warm hat plus the down insulated parka hood. It doesn't hurt you a bit to stand around in camp with a warm head.

I have one hat that is a heavy Army pile cap. One is a wool cap. One is Polartec. One is acrylic. I just take any two.

–B.G.–

In addition to all the posts above, with which I agree (especially with supplementing the NeoAir, preferably with a thick CCF pad–1/8" won't do much), I find it helps to do some exercise at bedtime–brisk walk or jumping jacks or similar–to rev up your body in preparation for warming up your quilt/sleeping bag.

I can't see in your posts that you wore your puffy jacket; did I miss something? If it gets cold, I will put on everything I have inside the sleeping bag, including rain gear and extra socks, whatever it takes to keep warm!

With a quilt, you need the equivalent of a sleeping bag hood on your head, in addition to the knit hat, when it gets cold. Maybe cap plus balaclava? Down hood?

If you can swing it, consider getting the Montbell bag from an retailer with a generous return policy (such as REI or backcountry.com) and try it for a while. Try it on a frosty night and also on a 45*-50*F night. The last time I looked, Montbell's "regular" and "long" sizes are different from most American bags. I believe the cutoff is 5'10" which means you'd need the long. Watch the girth measurements, too. Measure your shoulder and hip girth over your arms and while wearing all your insulating clothing. That might be why you're having problems with mummy bags.

I agree with eric

I use a top bag which is similar to a quilt

Above freezing I use a 200 wt fleece hat which is fine

Below freezing, I need something else – either a second layer of fleece (balaclava) or replace the fleece hat with a synthetic hood (okay, I'm back to disrespecting fleece)

No if and or buts about it:

1st The NeoAir is the #1 problem. For you, it will not keep you comfortable at those temps. As others have said, to use the Neo you will have to augment it with something else to sleep comfortable under 35 to 40 degrees. The Neo is a great pad but it has limitations. Others mileage my vary, but you have tested the pads lower end for your body.

2nd You could use a warmer quilt, but fix the Neo issue first. You might not have to change quilts but if you find after augmenting the Neo you are still a little cold then upgrade the quilt (you probably won't have to do this) or add more clothing.

Everything else that has been suggested is ancillary to the above. Fix the first two, then you can get into the minor idiosyncrasies of what the other have put forward.

My take on the the Pee thing is- Roger is right on the physics, body/bladder temps and all. I think when you are cold you feel like you need to go more than when you are warm. Why I don't know but my field studies have proven this out. For some reason I don't "need to go" as much when I'm warm compared to when I'm cold. And yes I have ask others if they felt the same phenomena. They responded "now that you mention it yes I was cold, I usually don't wake up because I had to 'go', but I did last night and I was also cold"
Let me know if anyone else has noticed this….

For starters the Neo air is only r 2.5, freezing (32F) is R 3.8 equivilant. So the first step is to increase your overall R value to closer match the temps you expect to encounter. Adding a ccf pad below your neoair would be the cheapest way to proceed. That would put you around r4-4.5 which would be good to 30F-25F or so.

Part of this can be compensated for by using more sleeping bag than you need or wearing more layers instead of adding more R value insulation underneath you.

Another good step to increase overall warmth through the night is to 'fuel your furnace', eating only half of a chili mac doesnt really seem like enough fuel for your body to keep warm through the night, drinking a diet coke or coke zero also wont help any as this adds no calories. Before heading off to bed eat a high calorie snack, dark chocolae peanut m&ms are a good choice for me, as well as a few pieces of beef jerkey. Drinking hot cocoa is good too. If you ever wake up cold eat a handful of something, i keep the m&ms beside me just for this purpose. Any combo of nuts, chocolate, trail mix etc are good choices.

If all else fails there is always the boil a liter of water and put it in a nalgene trick then put this at the foot of your sleeping bag or between your thighs.

Wearing a hat to bed can help too if its cold.

I found a huge difference from my Prolite with a zlite, moving onto my new thermarest all season, same quilt, both on snow covered ground at around 30 degrees, same everything except the new pad was radiating heat at me (it felt warm) and i was warm all night instead of mildly cold to chilly.

A warmer sleeping bag will not help all that much, if any- when you lay down you flatten/crush the "insulation" and the pad still acts as a heat sink, sucking the warmth out of you through your back. Extra insulation on your sides and top don't really help, if tried this. I added a 20* WM bag, puffy pants, down sweater all to no avail. All the insulation was flattened and I was still cold, even with adding all the extra insulation. And no, I wasn't compromising the down with too many layers, compressing it. This is my normal layers that I carry and they all fit just fine together.

Your coffee and Coke is loaded with caffine which constricts your blood vessles and inhibits circulation. Not good in cold weather and especially before bedtime.

Even if you are cool,( not toasty), your back should still feel warm, you should be able to feel the warmth of the pad against you. If not, you simply dont have enough insulating pad.

like others say, try improving it first.

Frost isnt a good indicator of temperature. Surfaces become sub-cooled from radiative loss and can frost well above freezing on a clear still night. You can probably also add 5-6 degrees to whatever the outside temp was for 2 persons in a 2P tent too. Of course getting up to pee a couple times would drop the tent temp. Just another reason to use a pee bottle in cold conditions when the tent is part of your system.

I want to thank everybody for their input on my freezing problem. A thread like this should be made into an article on cold weather sleeping tips!

I'll be honest, my previous normal way of combating cold on car camping trips was to sleep in a sleeping bag, on a cot with a Cabela's Alaskan Guide 2.5" self-inflating foam pad, with a Little Buddy propane heater to knock the chill out of the tent ;-)

For the last year I've really made a commitment to lightweight backpack camping as I prepare to take my crew to Philmont. I'm currently an Assistant Scoutmaster in my son's Boy Scout troop, and I'll be the Scoutmaster starting next January 1. I'm looking forward to sharing the things I've learned here with the boys!

maybe im being bad – but ever since i discovered peeing bottles i do it all the time (even @ home when i come back from business trip at 4AM and want to sleep through the morgen so i hide in my study while the girls wake up…need to pee in the bottle)

I always use whatever pot/bottle i carry for water – I usually use a 2 container system (never go out wit hjust 1 bottle/bladder) so i would either pee in a nalgene canteen or just in my snowpeak 700ml pot.

@david thomas – dont stop drinking!!!!
I find the contrary to be wiser – you cant really re hydrate enough on the trail. I start drinking like crazy as i get to camp (and eating..)so i end up peeing like 3~4 times at night. I think doing this (with the pee bottle of course) is much healthier than stopping fluid intake early

Mike

Is there enough down in the quilt? There have been a few photos posted of that quilt, and it looked as if it was underfilled on those photos.

One more thing: you say you're going to lose 30lb before Philmont. If you reach that goal, or just somewhere close, via exercise and activity (combined with deprivation and…well you get it), you'll not only have burned fat but also created more muscle. At your (our) age, this will have the effect of boosting your metabolism and you will sleep warmer — particularly with fuel in the tank.

Conversely, when out of shape and at the end of a day that beats you down with distance, you'll sleep colder (if you sleep well at all).

Good point form Eric. I can't prove it but my experience is I sleep a lot colder when I'm going to bed exausted.

Would there be any benefit to taking a space blanket and folding it in half lengthwise and slipping the NeoAir in between? That would put a layer between the ground and the mattress and between me and the mattress.

I'm guessing it would be very little (if any) benefit, but I'm trying to keep in the spirit of ultralight thinking.

mark …

no …

if the issue is more R value, only another pad (foam is cheaper and fairly light) or a new pad will work .. you can always return it to REI if it doesnt work

i strongly suggest that you test up and troubleshoot in yr backyard starting with a cheap foam pad and nutrition … and another cheap hat

from my experience in troubleshooting, you can end up spending a lot more and wasting a lot more time trying to fix everything at once without isolating the root cause

No the space blanket will not add anything. Eric is correct.
I know because I tried this very same thing and it had zero effect, plus the physics they claim is just not there.

Space blankets might help to block a little wind when wrapped around you, but other than that there only real use might be for a lightweight ground cloth.

Don't get fooled by the advertising, they do not generate heat or reflect any measurable heat back on you. A sheet of regular plastic would do the same.