Why am I freezing?

Supplement the pad or get an insulated pad. Perhaps put a Ridgerest under the NeoAir.

A few thoughts.

I have heard that the neoair isn't warm enough that low. You might want to consider adding a thin ccf next time to see if that helps. Or get an insulated pad.

What did you eat for dinner? Did you take a midnight snack to bed? I find that winter temps require me to eat a little something in the middle of the night when/if I wake up a bit chilly. Normally 15 minutes later I am back to warm.

I'm with Doug, try a warmer pad (or combo) first since it's cheaper than a new bag. I'd shoot for an R-value of around 4 (higher is warmer).

You didn't mention is you toss & turn at night. If you do, that could also come into play using a quilt. As mentioned in other posts, a different pad with a higher R-Value would help. After Christmas, I did a Scout hike in Big Bend (S. Rim) using my new All-Season NeoAir. It worked great (got down to the 30s at night). Another adult leader used his NeoAir and got cold around 5 am. He put his close-cell foam sit pad under his hips and he warmed up enough to go back to sleep.

Note: I used the NeoAir in a 2010 Philmont Trek (Cavalcade) along with a 20 deg WM Ultralight bag (used exclusively in a quilt mode) and stayed warm. My other two Philmont Treks (07 & 08), I used the same bag but used the RidgeRest pad. I stayed warm in my tarp tent (Cloudburst).

Have fun on your trek in Philmont.

YIS.

I agree with the comments above about eating something and improving your underside insulation. One other thought I had, is are you getting a good tuck on your quilt? Do you have the wings? I am a bigger guy like you. I discussed quilts with the guys from JRB… they recommended getting the wings to make sure I have proper coverage. The alternative is the two person quilt.

+1 on combining another pad (zlite?) with the Neo Air.

The dome perignon is great warmth per weight, but a bomber style with shell will be warmer (covers ear, sides of face, a bit under your chin) and adding warmth to your head is always the lightest warmth you can add.

I can't explain the pysiology, but I know I feel cold, really cold, with a full bladder. I was always hesitant to get up and pee because I thought I'd get colder being outside, right? But after I've peed, I feel warmer and sleep better. It's surprising how much difference it makes. Thermodynamically, it makes no sense – that pint of pee was at 98.6F/37C already. But maybe there's something about a full bladder that turns down your metabolism? It sure makes a difference for me. So I now cut off the drinks 2-3 hours before bedtime, pee right before getting into bed and don't hesitate to brave the cold to relieve myself at 1 am.

"I can't explain the physiology, but I know I feel cold, really cold, with a full bladder. I was always hesitant to get up and pee because I thought I'd get colder being outside"

+1…I experience the same thing and it puts you at quite the conundrum at 2am and 20 degrees outside. Brrrr.

I would test adding some insulation under the Neoair first. Cheapest option and very possible it's the cause of your trouble.

Ryan

"I can't explain the pysiology"

I think you have to pee more in the cold b/c this helps to reduce blood volume, which helps you body reduce circulation to extremeties (protecting the core).

I may just be imagining this.

Cold diuresis is a known phenomenon. Surface capillaries constrict to reduce heat loss to the environment, reducing the available volume of your circulatory system, increasing blood pressure. Your kidneys go into overtime to reduce the volume of liquid. So maybe it's not that having to urinate makes you cold, but being cold makes you urinate. Doesn't explain why one would feel warmer after urinating, though – maybe it's the exertion of getting dressed and going outside.

In backcountry first aid, we're taught to watch out for the rebound effect from cold diuresis – when the patient warms up blood pressure can crash leading to shock if already dehydrated or suffering from other volume loss.

Old, true statement regarding sleeping warm: what's under you is far more important than what's over you.

A good night's sleep is essential to hiking efficency, especially if you're out for long distances or multiple days. I've learned the hard way not to scrimp on the sleeping pad.

Some folks can sleep – God only knows how – on a 1/4 inch thick CCF torso pad that weighs an enviable 5 ounces. I want (need) a Thermarest Prolite Plus; 20 x 66 x 1.5 R=4.2. It's heavy, but I'm worth it. Yes, I appropriated my wife's pad; my more manly 20×48 left my legs cold, even with my pack under them. Advancing age does that to you.

"Doesn't explain why one would feel warmer after urinating"

Maybe emtying helps further diuresis.

If your body is reducing blood volume to stay warm and minimize heat loss, then no peeing is preventing that process. As such your body is having to expend more energy both in staying warm (since more blood is cooling at your skin surface) as well as energy to hold in urine. You know when you really have to pee and your whole body is hopping around to tell you nature's call can't be ignored…yeah that probably requires a lot of energy that could be used as warmth instead.

Of course this highlights the complexity of feeling warm. Usually when your extremities are cut off from blood they get cold, but having the skin cooled can provide a happy medium where they aren't losing as much heat so feel warmer despite being colder. I'm sure many couples are aware of this, one has frozen feet but is comfortable and the other is a furnace but freezing.

I know a lot of winter campers recommend peeing before going to bed to help with this phenomenon, so if it works, even as placebo, it works!

Could be a lot of things. With the million variables that go into sleeping outdoors, one night isn't necessarily a trend. You might try another night at the same temperature and be warm.

(With that said, here are a few thoughts if something is wrong…)

A lot of people have sad sleeping pad. Yes. I've read more strange reports about the NeoAir than anything else – it seems to not work for people (baffling, I now), while others use it down to 20º without issue. Do you have another sleeping pad? If not, supplement it with some thin foam.

Did you open up yourself to drafts with your quilt? I've done this a couple times in my sleep, only to wake up to tuck myself back under.

Your headwear might be an issue. Try a balaclava or at least a buff to cover up as much area as possible. You may not need a down hood, but you'll probably want something.

I sleep cold usually, but did very fine at Philmont in 2010 on my Neoair with an older Lafuma Warm 'n light 30* down bag with a Sea to Summit Reactor liner. Slept in shorts and a tshirt. Understand that the Lafuma bag is REALLY thin…. maybe a 50* bag if your lucky. The Reactor liner is more to keep the bag clean, not add any real measureable warmth – imo. A few nights I used the bag more like a quilt.
My first though when I read your post was a lack of food or water…. drink more, eat a bit more.
You shouldn't need another pad or bag at Philmont, get something cheap to get you through the winter shakedown hikes and you should be fine. Temps rarely dropped into the 40's – altitude isn't usually a big factor depending on your trek. (Philmont keeps everyone under 7,000 ft overnight for atleast the first 7 days….blame us flatlanders for that.)
I'll arrive at Philmont just before you this year….We arrive June 17th!!! I'll be carrying my Neoair, same liner, and my new Revelation X quilt from Enlightened Equipment.
Only 162 days til we leave….. but how's counting!!
Enjoy!
Sarah

You may have to change your feelings on being a cold sleeper.

I "didn't consider myself a cold sleeper" even though I've spent many nights shivering over the years. if you had a bunch of insulation for a given temp numerous times and continued to be cold all those times… you're a cold sleeper.

compensate or be cold. period. (AKA its that easy to fix)

I finally came to terms with the horrors and realizations of being a cold sleeper. Now I carry more sleepy stuff- viola! warm throughout the night- ahhhh

Read this thread…it might answer a few of your questions

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=40500

Hi,

I sleep cold also, so I always end up packing at least 500g more insulation and pad than my buddies, this goes for 3 Season or winter.

To be honest an extra 500g is not so much of a burden for getting a good nights sleep.

Cheers,

Stephen

a few quesions

1. what part of your was cold …. the back, sides, head, etc … did you feel heat seeping away through the ground

2. are you a back or side sleeper

3. did you feel drafts, were you in a tent

4. what was yr diet before sleeping

5. was the was the quilt still fully lofted when yr were feeling cold

6. was the neo air fully inflated, or did you leave it partially inflated for more comfort

i wont guess onto the reasons why until i have more data

You added insulation to your torso but not your legs. Consider adding some cheap synthetic long johns to your equipment. They would be nice (albeit not high fashion)to wear at breakfast time too.

Regarding the peeing issue, my one luxury item, with the resultant weight penalty, is a wide mouth 32oz Nalogene flexible cantene. I haven't had to do a pee run outside my shelter in the middle of the night since I started hauling it around. Though I've never tried it, and in line with the philosophy of dual use, after peeing in it stick it under your quilt to add some warmth (make sure the lid is on tight).
I think of myself as a cold sleeper and have been able to sleep comfortably in below freezing temps using a GoLite 20 quilt, a short Neoair combined with a 1/8" closed cell pad and a balaclava. I consider the balaclava as the key–I don't have much hair and the heat loss through my noggin is huge.

I am very grateful for this discussion. Here is some more info:

-Every part of me was cold, even my feet (which are usually burning up in socks. The NeoAir mattress was cool/cold to the touch.

-I was sleeping in a 2-man tent with my 10-year-old son with the rainfly on. I didn't feel any drafts in the tent

-I sleep on my side, and initially went to sleep this way.

-Both times I woke up I had to go pee outside. After getting back in the tent I laid on my back and tried to tuck the quilt under me (not the pad) to eliminate the possibility of cool air coming in under the sides.

-The NeoAir was not fully inflated… I keep it a little loose to form to my body better.

-I did my very best to loft the quilt, however I'm concerned that the down may have been falling down around me and the down on top of me was minimal. I fluffed the quilt after both times I got up to pee.

-My son and I split a Mountain House Chili Mac with Beef rehydrated (hot) dinner at 9:20. Prior to that I had a cup of hot coffee and then had a Coke Zero with the dinner. I didn't eat or drink anything else after that and we went to bed between 10:30-11:00. I peed before going to sleep.

In addition to the discussion about the mattress and quilt, I would love to hear what people think about my question on the Montbell UL Super Spiral Down Hugger sleeping bags. The reason I was looking at those is because they stretch and I normally feel claustrophobic in normal size mummy bags. I would probably like to get a bag either way, but don't want to get the wrong bag.

A Pee bottle is a big bonus if its cold or blowing a gale outside.

But if we're being hard-core ULers here, how about some tubing instead of a bottle? It's lighter and smaller.

Just catether yourself when going to bed and run the other end outside your shelter. Then you won't even have to sit up or maybe even wake up. Until we were 1 or 2 (or 5!) years old, we all just peed in our sleep.

It worked for that astronaut who drove across country to shoot her BF's other GF.

And before someone starts debating the merits of repeatedly cath'ing yourself without sterile supplies, let me say, I'M JOKING HERE!

Thats Funny :-)