Tarptent Notch

A problem with the "'add on " panels could be noise, somewhat similar to flapping fly panels but closer to you..
(not that I know it will happen for sure but that is what I see in my mind)

Had to get up at around 1PM last night out (New Year's Day) just to pull my Moment taut because of a couple of panels flapping in the wind.
Much less noise than the wind itself, but annoying.
If nothing else I had a good view of the Milky Way and a pee and went back to sleep.
So flapping panels are not my favourite thing…
Franco

Very good point Franco, so really you're talking an alternative inner part-solid, or a weighty velcro all around?

Well Henry can do whatever he likes do do with it, he usually does pick the best solution (you should have seen the many SS prototypes….)
I did think of Velcro but not that good of a solution when one side is exposed and yes sort of heavy.
My suggestion was a two inner version similar to the Scarp but maybe with a bit more mesh on the fabric one .
BTW, I set one up today.
Nice.
Franco
BTW, I re-read some of this thread . Thanks for the comments about Pip , I still miss her.
Today I was seam sealing a couple of tents and of course Lucy (Pip's mum) had to go inside to have a look .
Pip loved playing with my tents.

One of the reasons I (and quite a few others, it seems) asked for a solid inner was the weight savings, besides protection from condensation and blowing dust and warmth. Netting is quite heavy for what it does. A separate, solid inner would lighter than a fully mesh one.

The white inner /liner fabric used by TT is marginally heavier than the TT mesh.
Apart from air flow, with the mesh you can leave the fly open and have a good view outside. Can't do that with the fabric.
Here is the view from the SS2 :

(you need to mentally close the mesh inner and imagine the view, but honestly it was great about 40 minutes before.)
Franco

Here's a mockup of what I'm thinking/planning for the Notch partially solid optional interior.

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That would stop all wind/splash at sleeping level but still allow venting and views for standalone stargazging.

Re: mesh vs solid fabric weight, the mesh is 0.7oz whereas the solid fabric is 1.1 oz calendared nylon (same fabric we use now for Scarps and Rainbow/Moment liners). Don't know yet what the weight difference will be between the two interior styles but likely on the order of an ounce.

I'm actually not sure you would need it, Henry. The bathtub walls on the Notch are the highest that I have seen for a shelter of that nature. What I would like to see is a full Scarp 1 type inner to use in the shoulder seasons in the Rockies.

Henry, it doesn't matter to me. I'll order either a solid or partial solid inner as soon as you put it up on the web site. Love my Notch, BTW.

The mesh roof is a drawback for me. My interest in a solid inner is for wind protection and added warmth. The mesh roof would seem to decrease warmth. From a marketing standpoint I think the Scarp-style solid inner better fills the void leftover from the mesh inner offering.

Henry, are there any plans for a solid inner option for the SS2? If so, I will take one.

I agree with Thom and David. The appeal of a solid inner is it's wind-blocking capabilities and added warmth. I think a solid inner with too much mesh would negate the desired effects. Splash is of very little concern to me…I think your previous offerings have already demonstrated that very little splash manages to get inside the sleeping compartment.

"Re: mesh vs solid fabric weight, the mesh is 0.7oz whereas the solid fabric is 1.1 oz calendared nylon (same fabric we use now for Scarps and Rainbow/Moment liners). Don't know yet what the weight difference will be between the two interior styles but likely on the order of an ounce."

Henry,
I think that will strike the perfect balance between weight and weather resistance. Great lookin' tent there, well done!

M

I've owned/used only about 5 tents, from single-skin through part-mesh lower-only through solid all-apart from some mesh, so between no inner through degrees of sold inner. I am far from expert in this, but from my experience, the issue with solid all-over is its condensation-trapping effect nearer you and it being near your wet-hating gear like your sleeping bag. My Terra Nova Laser Competition has solid roof and it does trap my own breath there on a flat roof. I had a Coleman Viper with mesh roof and it didn't have the problem also very steep outer above the mesh so nothing dripped on me from breath.

The sleeping bag should be your primary form of getting insulation and your tent your rain shelter and need for steep walls to run off any internal damp. The mesh is all about keeping insects out with the least trapping of moisture possible. My last sleeping bag investment I went for a fully windproof water-shedding outer to focus more on it being my insulation so less needed from the tent.

The bathtub is a little low but in my mind's eye, a part-solid up a degree would be an improvement, but not solid to the roof because your breath will rise, condense on the roof of the relatively less-ventilated inner, better for the mesh roof and let your breath flow to the outer.

The mockup of Henry's idea is probably an improvement but I confess I can't guess, it need some field testing or comments from those more experienced than I !

I hesitated to argue too much with Henry privately and here on the site about the 100% solid inner mesh because I didn't want to cause more discomfort all around than I so often have on the site, but the truth is, I was hoping for a fully solid inner mesh from the start. Mainly for the warmth in colder seasons. But also protect against condensation on the rainfly. The solid inner doesn't need to and shouldn't be highly water-repellant… just repellant enough to stop drips from the fly, but breathable enough that condensation can't form. I've never had condensation on my inner tent in any of my solid inner double wall tents… Hilleberg Akto, Soulo, Terra Nova Competition, The North Face Tadpole, in all kinds of weather, all year long. Part of the secret is as Hilleberg does it… keep the inner far away from the outer fabric.

Enticing as talk of stargazing views out of the door are, the protection is more important for me. I can just leave the door open if the stars are out… since it doesn't rain then!

Henry, I like your design as is, for all of your stated reasons. I have a Fly Creek 1 with a half-solid half mesh interior (perhaps a bit less solid than your design) and it works great for wind/warmth and the mesh has kept any condensation that I might have out of the inner tent. Also–this is purely intuitive–doesn't mesh help with condensation somewhat? Warm breath out of the inner to the outer where hopefully it disperses.

"Also–this is purely intuitive–doesn't mesh help with condensation somewhat? Warm breath out of the inner to the outer where hopefully it disperses."

Yes but in high humidity or in cases of high condensation, a breathable fabric inner tent will prevent the drops from falling on you.

Right and this is what got others direct me to look at Tarptent, the condensation problem.

You're going to get damp on the outer sheet from ambient high humidity, the answer there is steep tent wall angles and plenty of ventilation. The Notch appears to have all that when inclusive of the poles at the higher position. This runs down to the outside of the inner.

"Yes but in high humidity or in cases of high condensation, a breathable fabric inner tent will prevent the drops from falling on you."

You can certainly place a breathable low HH inner overhead to catch any drops from the outside but it will also form a smaller, lower ambient-airflow, higher-humidity area, which be also suffering from condensation, from which it runs down to inside and pools on your gear. Due to little humidity pressure, I don't think any breathability of the inner fabric will help evaporation it will simply stay there til sun evaporates it.

So what is the best approach to condensation? The Notch has a flat section above and then steep sides, you could certainly consider a solid top but then anything dropping on it will run down to…. any mesh at the sides so you quickly end up with a solid-everything except for the down-facing ends argument, which is what my TN LC has. The TN LC has shallower angles, I know that condensation just stays there til it drops on the inner, my hope is a steeper-walled outer will let it run down?

"Hilleberg Akto, Soulo, Terra Nova Competition, The North Face Tadpole, in all kinds of weather, all year long. Part of the secret is as Hilleberg does it… keep the inner far away from the outer fabric."

Own the Laser Comp – for sure, a nearly-all-solid-inner helps raise the temperature inside, but the LC the inner and outer are not massively far apart and there are long unsupported areas and wind forces the outer to the inner as well as a twang which flicks any water inside. The general geometry of the LC is similar to the Scarp1 and its got shallower slopes and a solid inner.
Hasn't Henry showed here that the Notch is 3 season and the Scarp 4 and so make your choice?

Purely theoretical just from photos….

Did the math, the Notch's walls are 31.3 degs to the horizontal going parallel to sleeper, and the sides which aren't really over the sleeper, at a much steeper 65degs.
Compare to say the Scarp1 the slope is shallower at 22degs.

I don't think 31degs is steep enough is it for condensation to run down under gravity?

Compare to say the Contrail, it does have a gentler slope towards the feet but the bulk of the fabric over the sleeper is at a little below 51degs probably 45degs so steeper than the Notch.

So from a math perspective, the Notch isn't really going to be able to handle condensation *if* it forms like say a Control would and the Scarp handles it via a solid inner which will shed any that drops on whilst the Notch can't. Also, you can't reach from your sleeping bag to soak+wring any forming. With the Notch you'd have to get out of the inner and reach around.

So having done that comparison on *if* condensation forms, the issue is *will* it form with such an open high-edge design? My TN LC I was very disappointed despite pulling all the elasticated attachment points out tight to raise them higher off the ground, to have a soaked outer which it weren't for the inner would have dripped more on me. The TN LC has sides 28.6degs to horizontal so only 2.7degs shallower than the Notch so in similar conditions I do have a concern the Notch WILL be dripping condensation on the inside.

>..and the Scarp handles it via a solid inner which will shed any that drops on whilst the Notch can't.

I own a Scarp 2 with a mesh inner. As the condensation builds up, the droplets become heavier and at some point they start to glide down along the fly. Sure, some water still stays there before there is a chance for it to dry out, or before I shake it off, or wipe it with a cloth. But even if I give a gentle shake to the fly, it just makes the droplets easier to glide.

It did drip on the inner (a bit) during very heavy rain and during hail, that is when the fly was fluttering. Mesh held the droplets outside except for the 'misting'.

So mesh takes a drop of water and holds it outside? I've seen them run down vertical mesh but I'm frankly surprised it will hold outside of more horizontal mesh.

I was looking more at the photo those two vents where the poles go in the Notch simply don't have equivalents in say the Scarp or the TN LC. So Notch has a tad more airflow up by the roof line than the Scarp.

I guess the mesh has some kind of DWR treatment. My tent is relatively new, just about 20 nights, maybe later the mesh will behave differently.
Some amount of water didn't roll down and looked like some kind of film stretched in the mesh openings. I removed it by touching it with a cotton handkerchief. But nothing had dripped on my sleeping bag.

Nah. With condensation and high winds I have experienced droplets hitting the mesh and dispersing through as a spray.

I really enjoy my Scarp 1 and would look forward to having a similar, or partial, inner liner on the Notch.

So I've never owned a fully-mesh inner so I spent last week+ searching BPL and other forums to figure out what it would be like. As far as I can tell it is a GOOD thing in warm climates, but a BAD thing in cold climates. A solid inner is barely any weight difference, according to some, a slightly heavier according to others, depends on the fabric. When you look at the added weight, and the quoted temperature increase inside/outside its a worthwhile weight/benefit to have solid inner, vs say a warmer sleeping system.

I also think I know why my TN LC was so damp it had no venting on the outer near the roof. I see the Scarp has these and the Notch does too. A few tents back I had a Coleman Viper and it had mesh with a flap cover on a single-hoop and it didn't suffer damp as much as the TN LC.

So, without buying/trying, as far as I can tell, making a solid inner option, inclusive of the roof, like the Scarp would be a good option to take the Notch down into cooler conditions with a good weight penalty relative to a heavier sleeping bag.

Any news on a solid inner option for Tarptent Notch?

For colder situations.

Also a solid including the overhead with some high-sided side mesh plus a velcro roll-back to expose mesh at the ends.

This really a nice design. The two vestibules, reduced condensation, and option to set up fly first in storms makes it tempting to get in lieu of The One which I have otherwise been happy with. But I have as yet not seen any field reports. I know what month it is, barely, but has anybody south of the equator or on the west coast taken this out for a test drive?