New England-area GTG #2: Winter Wonderland

= X number of snickers bars (love them when they're cold, I bought 2 x 6 packs yesterday) and trail mix!

Steve

I have been thinking about it and I think I will try and rock my Gossamer Gear TarpTent. I have never used it in the snow before but it sets up fairly sturdy and should be good for a couple of days. Need to practice staking it out in the snow.

Should the weather change my mind I could flip as the trip nears.

Thanks for the offer.

Anyone have a link to a decent map I can snag?

USGS:
http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=42.97828,-73.07178&z=13&t=T&marker0=42.97828%2C-73.07178%2C6.5%20km%20SxSE%20of%20Bennington%20County%20VT

Hey Folks,

Something… very bad has come up, and I'm putting up lots of winter / mountaineering gear up on Gear Swap. If you folks are looking for equipment, it's there.

Thanks,
Barry

Tent: sounds good. If I can’t swing the hammock for this trip I’ll just take Bryce up on his tarp offer.

I think I’m going to bring this, I’ve worn it in Boston in the 10’s and it’s been quite comfy, wool top, windproof face and neck mask. then with the Triple-star down jacket’s hood at camp I think my head should be good.

Frozen snickers bars *are* the best. I may need to get a box from Costco…

almost forgot about this before leaving the house, took some quick pics

pics of the pot and kettle. both have flat bottoms, though the kettle is only about 4″ diameter. the kettle holds less volume but does have the easy pouring ability. Will try and weigh and measure volume tonight.

I wouldn't even weight that bad boy it might break your scale. I couldn't do that to even my worst enemy. I say we make do with the pots we have.

Just curious since we'll be snowshoeing, not just hiking….thx.

I have an aluminum pot that measure 6" wide bye 3" tall that holds 40oz filled to a little bit more than a centimeter below the top of the pot. It comes with a lid/plate Also nestled inside it is a smaller pot.

Ive never used it since I always just take my 850ml ti snow peak ti pot but that is skinny and tall.

Since I dont have a stove, what about fuel? What about the sourcing, do the ones with stoves want to bring the fuel as well for people like me with out and I can give you some mulla and share the load carrying. Or should I procure my own fuel?

Food first, because it is dinner time and my girlfriend is running late so that is kinda the only thing I have in mind. I don't do the calories thing, it hurts my head. I subscribe to the Mike C lb/person/day which is about 1.7 for winer trips. I also take an extra meal in the winter just incase something happens and an extra night must be spent in the woods.

I would say bring the pot because it looks like we are short on big pots. For my stove you don't have to worry about fuel, I am bringing enough to melt snow for two nights for about 3-4 people.

Rodger Dodger on the cooking pot

On that same line of thought do we have enough stoves? Should I try and get one for winter?

so here's a question for the experienced winter hikers. would one of the winter stoves be able to boil 4qt of water at a time or would the energy losses to the environment outweigh the advantage of a 4qt pot?

I ask because the $15 4qt REI pot I linked to earlier is only 16oz, which is not much higher in oz/qt than a 1qt titanium pot is, but if we can more easily boil water that way… I'm also thinking of making an koozie ring for it out of a polyethylene foam or some such to help minimize those losses.

BUT if it's thought that this may be an impossible task out in the woods then I'll forgo the idea.

Stoves we have right now are:
2 MSR white gas
1 wood
1 canister
I don't really know I don't have any experience in the winter with wood or canister stoves. I do know that 2 MSR stoves aren't enough for our group size. So if there is any doubt in one of the other two stoves not doing the job then I think we need another stove.

As far as pots go, size doesn't matter. Sorry I couldn't resist. As long as it is wide enough to get a hand in there and move snow around (about 6 inches or so) it will work great. 4qt is about as large as you want to go, but we don't have to fill it all the way up. Just make sure you make a foil wind screen for around the outside of the pot.

I’ll buy the pot and make a windscreen and koozie for it. If we Northeastern’ers keep doing these group hikes I get the feeling it will come in handy; also, $15…

I’m doing some reading on using canister in the winter. Here are some of the links I’ve found with some good info. This one is of particular interest, because I do have a remote canister stove. First, some graphs for uprights:

Upright Gas Stove Performance at Low Temperatures

This one however I found more interesting…
Caffin on canister stoves in deep cold

the whole thing is worth reading, but here’s a “highlight”,

Let’s first compare ease of use between a top-mount and a remote canister stove. Basically, there is very little difference between the two. In fact, one of the things I like about the remote canister stove is the fact that it is lower to the ground than a top-mount. Otherwise, it is still just ‘connect, turn on and light’.

The other really major advantage of the inverted canister stove is that the fuel extracted from the canister is the original liquid butane/propane mix. This means that the percentage of propane left in the canister stays constant, all the way to empty. You don’t end up with a canister 2/3 full of non-boiling butane. In effect, the propane provides the driving pressure which is given by the pump in a white gas stove.

Hey guys I've been watching this thread and considering making the trip, if I can gather some funds for a 4 season sleeping bag/quilt system. Just curious, any other shorter trips being planned? I'm an experienced 3 season backpacker, but I just can't wrap my head around a 9-10 mile day on the snow as an intro for me. I usually travel at about half my normal speed in winter/snow, and judging by the challenge of taking the Marcy/Haystack loop in a day (from slant rock camp) in October, I'm a little bit hesitant to jump into that length of hiking as my first big winter trip. Anyone planning any day hikes or shorter trips more geared towards the winter noobs?

Hey Adam,

From what I can tell the degree of difficulty and elevation change isn't on the level of Marcy, but no doubt this trip will push my limits with the 10mi of snowshoeing. I guess the guys who are in better shape convinced me in that they promised to break trail the entire time. ;p (In reality/theory, having 7-8 guys taking turns breaking trail will help.)

I am up for shorter trips as well, definitely.

Well maybe I'll start an intense workout regime after this weekend to prepare :) Or maybe it just won't snow this winter, so far I'm still riding my moped on the street and that was not possible this time last year!

Yea, it was 60 deg in Boston yesterday, and right now its 55. I can only imagine it both won't be cold when we get up there and there won't be snow. I know a few folks in VT that have said they've had no real snow fall yet…

This is starting out as a terrible year for snow. I started saying it is only mid November so we are bit behind it is ok that the high peaks, Northern VT, and the presidentials don't have much snow. Then I said its ok only the beginning of December… NOW it is almost Christmas!!!! I just want to play in some snow. VT could get buried in the next 3 weeks but we are getting close to crunch time for the snow to start filling in. Lets all do a collective snow dance, it has worked for me in the past.

I camp each February in the ADKs with friends. Here is a comment from one of them:

"I tried an upright butane stove on a not-very-cold winter camping trip, it was useless. Jamie uses a Jetboil and loves it in February, I think if it's gonna be super-cold he will keep the fuel inside his jacket. Also the 4-season mix might work better than the red MSR can I used. My wick-priming alcohol stoves are the only stoves that have never ever failed me… white gas should work too tho."

Yeah I can tell you I've also experienced major frustration in cold temp canister stove use. I keep my 15 year old MSR international on hand because after all these years, it still works, in any temperature. The thing about canister stoves is the gas gets too cold to really move around – it doesn't want to escape the canister and burn. There are a few options. I dealt with it by keeping fuel canisters in pockets, my sleeping bag at night, or wherever else you can put the canister to keep it warm. But the problem is as the cooking begins, unless you have a nice and large wind screen, the heat from the stove won't be enough to keep the canister warm. Again, some people make nice solid screens to keep heat concentrated around the canister, keeping it warm, the opposite of what you want to do with these in the summer (overheating has been warned against – risk of explosion to the canister maybe?) But I can't recommend the MSR whisperlite international enough for the winter. Yeah its heavier than a canister or wood stove system, but you don't need to worry about the cold temp, gathering wood/dry kindling, etc. I'd say your best winter options are the wood stove and the MSR whisperlite style stoves. Those things are tanks.

A) how did he use the upright stove?
B) I have a remote canister stove I can bring.

This link has much better info no the working theory on using canister stoves in the winter.

If we wanted to still use an upright, it looks like a canister with 0% n-Butane, kept above 11F before initial ignition and set up so that the flame heat keeps the can above 11F and below 113F works fine, ie a reflective heat sheild. I’ll do some testing when/if the temperature actually drops. I have some high quality instant read kitchen thermometers. I’m thinking a dual use reflectix-type sit pad/wind shield may be in order…

One option in warming a canister up is fresh urine…

LOL nice, let me know how it goes with peeing on the canisters :)

Thanks, good link. This is really what I was trying to say: "The temperature inside the canister can drop to a point where the liquid fuel inside the canister won’t evaporate appropriately."

This is because the molecules are moving slowly, aren't excited, and the gas wants to just sit in the container rather than evaporate up and out to be burned as fuel. Based on the measurements, I think the best option is:

MSR IsoPro: 0% n-butane, 80% isobutane, 20% propane

But according to the info:

n-Butane vaporizes at 31 degrees F
Isobutane vaporizes at 11 degrees F
Propane vaporizes at -43 degrees F

So does anyone know if these stoves work with straight propane? The heavier green coleman-style containers were propane, correct? down to -40 would mean there would be nothing to worry about.

Will do!

Yea, which is why many say use a system to also "cook" the canister, just don't cook it to anywhere close to 113F…

From what I read the stoves should work with straight propane, it doesn't burn as hot, by about 200deg, but also propane requires higher pressure storage, thus the heavier tanks.

honestly, from what I've read, it sounds like if you know what your doing, using a canister stove, of either type, with a non n-Butane containing canister, you can cook down to temps I would rather not be in anyway.

From another friend who camps in the ADKs:

"My Jetboil worked great with the Jetboil fuel, but was a fail with the Coleman brand fuel. My Whisperlite blew it's 3rd gasket, and I haven't bothered to fix it since the alky set and Jetboil are so much simpler and take less (read that as "no") maintenance."