Grand Canyon- Double Crossing aka “Rim-to-Rim-to-Rim”- BPL Group Run

It looks like I've got a good deal on flights from Denver to Phoenix making this financially viable for me. Maybe we can all squeeze into a rental car to make the drive to the ditch cheaper? Maybe a warm up run in Sedona on the way ???!?

Just saw this and I could be really jazzed about it. I love GCNP trips, did BA-River-BA with my 11-year-old last summer, have done a few other trips to the River this century and more Rim-River-Rims (plus a R2R2R) back in the last century.

April is a GREAT time to dodge "mud season" in Alaska and a wonderful motivater for training all winter.

Meeting and hiking with some of you whackos would be cool, too.

But I'm a hiker, not a runner – at least for the last few decades. I've run/walked the NK-River-NK when I was half my age.

>"This will be done in the fashion of a run/hike and will likely be a 12-16 hour day"

So is the approach to run down, run the flattish parts and hike the uphills? If so, maybe there's a play where I leave (as I often do) at 2 am with a headlamp and you runner types catch up with me somewhere on the NK.

Or maybe I just suck it up and get some running in this winter. Hiking only, R2R2R was 19 hours years ago (that last 5,000' up was brutal) and I'm in much better shape now so maybe jogging some of it isn't that far off my normal game – hiking only, I'd now expect 16 hours. Definitely time for screws in the shoes if I'm running the snowy forest trails this winter.

And do you imagine this as a group of 6-8 running/hiking together? Or groups of 2-3 pairing off by their preferred speeds?

Thanks! -David Thomas Kenai, Alaska

can't speak for the others, but some of these guys compete in ultra events- I'm not one of those guys :)

I'm trying my best to get into decent shape where I can run a fair share of the trail (but realizing a fair share will probably be walked)

my guess is there will mixture of groupings based on condition, time spent gawking, photo taking, etc :)

you can get a little insight in our training thread, you'll see some folks who are already very conditioned (already running 40+ miles a week) and some like me not so much

I'd say go for it, get some conditioning going now and assess where your at come April, worse case scenario you'll be in decent shape even if you don't end up going- that's the attitude I'm taking

I doubt very much we will all try to do the R2R2R as a single group.
too much variation in condtioning, experience, and desire.
actually I'm not even sure everyone is planning on a full R2R2R.
also not even sure all the R2R2R ers will be doing the same version.
BA-NK-BA
SK-NK-SK
SK-NK-BA
several options

yes it will pretty much be run the downhills, walk the uphills, do whatever feels best on the flats. I don't think there are very many really fast people on the list.
I'm sure not fast.

David which version did you do 19 hours ?
you sound like you'll do fine.

Mike: Thanks for your thoughts.

Worst case is actually: I'm out on a training run some night in Kenai and get stomped by a moose.

Best case: With increasing sunspot activity, we finally get some auroras again because being outside after dark is the best way notice/see them. And I get enough miles in to make a PR. And feel decent afterwards.

And don't discount the devoted hiker – that Faster Known Time link reported the runners getting passed by a hiker on the uphill. I try to be that kind of hiker.

I guess you've got some sub-zero and white stuff constraints on your training, too, huh?

> "I'd say go for it, get some conditioning going now and assess where your at come April, worse case scenario you'll be in decent shape even if you don't end up going- that's the attitude I'm taking"

I'd say go for it, get as much conditioning as you can and GO regardless. Maybe you (and I?) just have a nice easy dayhike to the River and back and hand the crazy runners some turkey wraps or sushi or goo or ice cream sandwiches on their way up.

And maybe you get to the River feeling so good, you keep going and get halfway up the other side. I've had days where things just felt right and I kept going.

Art: Thanks. It sounds like maybe it's a lot of different trips on the same date. With prepatory and celebratory meals together before and after?

My 19-hour R2R2R was SK-NK-SK. Mid April, 1985. The thing was, I'd done diddly hiking that whole winter and it was totally on a lark, as I was driving I-40 east and started thinking, "Hmmm, BA-BA was a great dayhike. I'll do SK-SK this time. Or maybe more. Oh, here I am at the SR at 2 am. Why sleep for 3 hours when I could start hiking now? Maybe I could do the whole thing?" So it was with no conditioning, no planning, and I totally bonked leaving the River for the SR. But I was 23 years old and the weather was perfect.

On that day, more than any other, I learned that I can wear down my body if I'm not properly conditioned and the years have only reinforced that. Carrying a 40-pound pack on a family BP trip and powering up a Half Dome or GCNP trail for 5,000 feet without stopping is easier now than it's ever been. Hiking is a sport that ages well. I've had my butt kicked by 80-year-olds on Mount Whitney and while skiing in Utah.

I hope everyone has had an enjoyable week or so of holiday festivities. In all honesty, who here has put on a few pounds or lost a little pep in their step?

I've eaten more baked goods and consumed more porters and ales in the last 2 weeks than I have in all of 2011. I know my ounces of craft brew consumed rivals my miles run the last two weeks…..but it's been oh so sweet! I set out for a solid climbing run up in the mountains on Monday and met up with my father and brother in law for a nice day hike on some fresh snow and ice up high, it was quite enjoyable. The last two days have been spent recovering from a nasty upper respiratory infection and nursing a sick wife and two kiddos with infections and pink eye.

On that note I just wanted to encourage everyone to keep at it with their training, whatever that is to you, and to keep the goal in mind which is quickly approaching. I know the next three months for me will be heavier on the mileage and focusing on building up the climbing into my week.

A few things:

@ Eric Payne,

I think several of us will be converging in Phoenix at similar times, so we should figure out the nitty gritty details soon, especially for those who intend to purchase airfare now while pricing is cheap. Carpooling makes the most sense if at all possible, I know I intend to bum a ride.

To anyone else interested in joining us in April:

This is an entirely open invitation to anyone who understands the difficulty of doing a run of this nature. While we will be meeting as a group on April 14th, we all fully understand that this will be a personal endeavor once we head down below the Rim and how the day plays out will vary from person to person depending on their fitness, goals, and individuality. Mike and Art hit it on the head in their comments above. I'm sure some will naturally pair up or group up, others may want to suffer the joy of running the distance in their own headspace. I think it is assumed that we will be looking out for our fellow brothers and sisters throughout the day.

Happy New Year my friends!

Right on Eugene, I'm getting excited as well.
I've actually managed to get through the holidays unscathed, at least no heavier than before. I had just lost about 9 pounds on the way into late December.

Last week was a crappy running week, only two runs due to a bad cold. I thought I was over it, went on an 11.5 mile trail run with Adan Lopez (also on BPL) yesterday, followed by 6 hours of doing construction work. Now I feel like I've been hit by a truck, can't do a thing, full-on flu symptoms.

But anyhow, I should be back on track by New Year's, when I planned on getting more serious anyways.

So happy new year everyone, stay healthy, I think it's going to be a good one for outdoor adventure.

I have gone through the holidays unscathed but…. that's only because I gained 20 lbs. in the previous three months (since I got back from the PCT.) Finally I have lost a couple and will lose the last 6lbs. to get back to my ideal weight. (It's a lot easier to put on than take off.)

I would love to get the date finalized in order to make flight plans. My wife may also be joining me (not us, we couldn't pay her enough to even walk to the river.) so we also may have some logistical support at the run's end depending on our route. We may be able to shuttle some folks up to GC depending on schedules.

Also, the only preference I have is to have water on the way back up the south rim. It will be hard enough without the extra water weight but even that is not a big deal. Bottom line, the particular route is less important to me. Also, this is more of a "fun" run for me vs. trying to hit some particular time so the social element is more important. (What a switch from my PCT hike!)

Can't wait, my training is in full swing so that I don't embarass myself too much!!

@ Craig and Greg,

It's good to hear ya'll are doing well and in good spirits.

Greg, the date is set, we'll all be heading down Saturday, April 14th. I imagine that everyone will be arriving to the South Rim on Friday the 13th….. (dun dun dunnnnnnn). Eric Payne mentioned freebie camping in Forest land the night before; finding a plot of land large enough to house a group of runners/hikers shouldn't be an issue. Obviously if people want to shack up at the Lodge at the S. Rim, crash in their car, etc. the night before that's totally an option. I'd like to hang out with all of you and possibly enjoy a beer or two and some brats or something post run and recollect on everyone's day, so if we could secure a spot to keep things communal that would be my selfish preference.

is a group site inside the Park at the south rim campground (Mather Campground) an option or not?
still camping but a bit closer to the start and finish trailheads.
plus hot showers.

Glad to hear all these positive updates! I too have come through the holiday season pretty well (thus far). Here's a short summary of recent weeks: I fled the frozen and snowy basin and range of Southern New Mexico just in the nick of time for my native SE Pennsylvania, where we've enjoyed unseasonably high temperatures with intermittent rain (ironic huh?).

I've enjoyed Christmas with my family rolling out artisan pizza and pasta from scratch with homemade tomato sauce and wine. Hope everyone has a great and safe remainder of the holiday season and carries on with their running. I am going to keep indulging in great Italian food and pizza, which are nearly impossible to come by in S. NM just to burn them off the next morning on the trails.

I'm bumping this thread for anyone else who missed this or is still on the fence.

There's a few months left folks.

concerning water: if I understand it correctly it's ~ 7 miles to Phantom Ranch and that's the first reliable water source (heading down)

I thought the next water reliable water source was Cottonwood (~ another 7 miles), but this site as of 11/10/11 shows it OFF, thought this was a year round one????

http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/trail-closures.htm#CP_JUMP_140503

they also show Roaring Springs OFF, which I often see listed as year round????

if this holds we only have one reliable water source at the 7 mile and 35 mile point? that's going to be a little rough to say the least, are Cottonwood and Roaring typically turned on before May? or am I missing some source(s)

thanks

If the spigot at cottonwood is off, can't we just drink from the river and bring a few tablets?

When I did this trip in October a few years ago, I remember everyone talking about water sources as if it's an issue- then I discovered that you're essentially running along the stream for ~1/3 of each crossing.

So we just need to verify the Cottonwood situation before the hike.

I've been south of the River a lot, but not on North Kaibab for a long time. Is there surface water between Cottonwood and the North Rim? i.e. if Cottonwood were off, could we use iodine/filter? I know – it's cold, it needs a long contact time, but I'll probably have the iodine with me, regardless.

Dave
to the best of my 3 year old recollection, the answer is no, unless you mean rain puddles.

but as long as trail workers are using the house, there will be water there.

hopefully Cottonwood will come online before April (Roaring Springs maybe too)

is anyone interested in getting a room for Fri and Sat night? they are pricey (~ $140/night for two queens), but kind of nice :)- would forego bringing camping equipment as well- we could probably get a fair number of folks into a room I think

I checked on shuttles from the lodging area and starting in March the shuttle will run every 1/2 hour starting at 4:30 AM to get one to the South Kaibab TH

I guess I should ask have we settled on the South Kaibab?

Mike,

I'll be coming from far away (farthest, perhaps?) and possibly red-eyeing there, so, yeah, I'm planning to hotel it. And going halfsies on a room is good with me. If it's 8 guys in a room, I'll pass – I value my sleep too much and want every edge I get for a trip like this.

The last couple of times I stayed in at the Red Feather Lodge just outside the park because they had vacancies a few months in advance. Nothing special, generic hotel, generic dining room. Or were you thinking of something in the Park? Not even getting in the car that day is always nice.

To follow up on your Q: Are people thinking South Kaibab both ways or shuttle to the SK and return up the Bright Angel? I'd lean towards 1) BA-NK-BA or 2) SK-NK-BA myself. My last R2R2R was SK-NK-SK and the SK going up was dry, steep, and lonely.

For BA-NK-BA on such a long day, I'm not morally opposed to stashing food in a very animal-proof container on the way down the BA. Extra pounds carried over dozens of miles adds up, at least for me.

I'm up for either as far as lodging goes, Red Feather sounds fine- I looked the Best Western on line and that's where I got the $140-ish rate- they also had vacancies (as of now anyways)- not sure if it's right in the park or just close????

I do like the idea of SK->NK->BA, little different country and not a heck of a lot longer- I'd certainly cast my "vote" for that option

I would like to include one leg of SK if possible as I've heard it's very scenic

Those hotels are 1 mile outside the park entrance in a small village called Tusayan. and about 7 miles from the Bright Angel trailhead.
not sure how far from SK trailhead.

Mike:

I just made a reservation for the Red Feather Lodge $252 for two nights plus taxes = $282 total. Two queen beds. Nights of April 13 and April 14. I'm fine if I'm the only one there. You're also welcome to stay with me and split the tab. It seems like we might be doing similar paces – I surely am not running the whole dang thing!

-David

David- that sounds good to me (God willing of course :) )

yeah- definitely not running the entire thing either, I'm just hoping to make it the entire way!

are you flying into Phoenix?

Mike

>"are you flying into Phoenix?"

Yep. Into Phoenix 9:20 am Fri, Apr 13
Departing Phoenix 8:00 am Mon, Apr 16

I'll rent a car. Anyone who is arriving about then is welcome to catch a ride north with me on Friday.

I'm thinking with my early Monday departure of staying in Phoenix Sunday night. Maybe a motel or couch-surfing with a friend.