Aug 10, 2011 at 7:59 am #1277861
I found a source for a super light fabric from china. See specs below. The minimum order quantity is 100yards. I dont need 100 yards so i thought to post here and make a group buy.
8d x 8d
Finished weight .65oz/ sq yd
High Quality DWR
I have never seen this fabric before so i cant guarantee its quality or specs. I imagine it is something very similar to this
If i get enough orders i will order it cut it up and ship it out.
Shipping is $5 to anywhere in USA. Payment via paypal. Minimum order 5 yardsAug 10, 2011 at 8:01 am #1767804
Replied to the wrong thread.Aug 11, 2011 at 8:05 am #1768182
Put me down for 5 yards.Aug 11, 2011 at 8:56 am #1768199
Do you have a spec. sheet? Do you know what color it is?Aug 11, 2011 at 9:10 am #1768203
Sumi WadaBPL Member
@detroittigerfanLocale: Ann Arbor
Put me down for 5 yards.Aug 11, 2011 at 5:28 pm #1768381
it can be any color. I was thinking to order black… but I will go with whatever the majority wants.Aug 11, 2011 at 5:48 pm #1768393
So, let me get this straight. You don't know what its width is, and you don't know its weight in ounces per _square_ yard.
–B.G.–Aug 11, 2011 at 6:00 pm #1768399
Width is 58" and weight is .65 oz /sq yd. Its true I can not guarantee these numbers as I have not seen the fabric yet, but this is what the manufacturer told me.Aug 11, 2011 at 6:12 pm #1768401
Before, you stated the weight as .65oz/yard, and now you think it is .65 oz/sq yd.
I will pass.
–B.G.–Aug 11, 2011 at 6:27 pm #1768408
Just a friendly warning, that we've seen fabric samples that were up to 100% over manufacturer stated weight. Denier doesn't dictate finished weight, although it can be a rough indicator.
Also, we've seen some really really bad sub-20d fabrics. "Caveat Emptor", and good luck!Aug 11, 2011 at 7:21 pm #1768443
I left out the sq.
This is my source… http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/469824562/8D_nylon_taffeta.html
I am not trying to trick anybody here. You can contact them yourselves and ask questions.Aug 11, 2011 at 7:23 pm #1768444
Both your posts in this thread so far are what is known as "thread @#$%ting." It's not conduct that's appreciated by anyone.
Yes, Zohar made a small and common typo in listing the fabric as "per yard" rather than the correct "per square yard." He also originally omitted the roll width. If you wanted to inform Zohar of his error in units there are other more appropriate ways of doing that. If you were interested in what the roll width was, you could have simply asked.
Presumably there are any number of threads in Gear Swap that you're not interested in. Your silence alone was enough to inform the seller and the rest of us of your, "I'll pass." Perfection is achieved when there is nothing left to take away.
Thanks for offering this for sale.
Before claiming my 5 yards I looked through your post history. You've shown some skill in tracking down suppliers of down, fabric, and even self-inflating pad nozzles and a willingness to share those opportunities with the community. Didn't see a complaint from anyone. Please keep it up.
It certainly is a bit of a gamble given that none of us have seen this material, but the MOQ, price, and shipping are all quite reasonable. I seem to recall that the problems Momentum 50 has are with the backing and alleged vetting of "Ayce"/Thru-Hiker and Ron Bell/MLD. And a $22/yard price tag.
At $6/yard I bet I'll be more satisfied than those that shelled out $20+/yard for the originally advertised as down proof (claim since redacted from the Thru-Hiker website) and since reported as feather leaking and overly air permeable Momentum 50. If it pans out for us and the product arrives on-spec perhaps the supplier can offer other competitively spec'd materials at a competitive price that isn't seemingly pegged $5 beneath Cuben.
Thanks for the heads up. Were you and Josh able to get samples before throwing down cash for the MOQ? Many of the suppliers on Alibaba make to order and don't have stock on hand. Haven't inquired about samples though. Have you, Zohar?Aug 11, 2011 at 8:50 pm #1768483
Ron BellBPL Member
Sorry in advance to jump in on the thread Zohar.
I tried to send you a private PM since I see you mentioned MLD in this thread, but you don't have a PM set up.
– We don't sell materials and we don't make any down products, so maybe I missed an email from you or something- did you have another question for me about this thread that is different from the other thread today where I answered your question?
Also, I see you use the forms frequently and I wanted to offer to cover your BPL membership fee for one year. Send me an email and I'll get it set up with Addie for you!Aug 11, 2011 at 8:58 pm #1768485
"Presumably there are any number of threads in Gear Swap that you're not interested in."
Pilate, now you are confusing. This is not Gear Swap.
–B.G.–Aug 11, 2011 at 9:52 pm #1768496
That fabric is nothing like SevenD. First off, it has no cire finish and wont hold back down. Second it is barely water resistant, and very very air permeable. Its not worth the $6 a yard price. Peter Yao likes to peddle that stuff all over the net, it is nothing more than shear curtain material. I, as I am sure others, appreciate your sentiment in trying to help out the DIY crowd, but the fabric is not what your hoping it is. Make Peter send you large samples of the stuff, and you'll see what I mean. Also, have him ship the sample on his dime, and tell him I said Hi!Aug 11, 2011 at 9:57 pm #1768499
If I post more, or trash talk better, will you buy me a membership? ;-)Aug 11, 2011 at 10:29 pm #1768505
I will Josh ;)Aug 11, 2011 at 10:59 pm #1768511
Thanks for answering my question in that other thread and generally being helpful.
I don't have any further questions for you, and you haven't missed any communications from me.
I was aware that you sell the eye-poppin' drool-inducing well-regarded finished goods while "Ayce" at Thru-Hiker handles the DIY/MYOG materials sales. Hope I didn't come off as implying that you sell the materials or currently sell down goods.
Merely, I was referencing your relationship with "Ayce" in the sourcing and alleged testing and vetting of materials and where there was an apparent breakdown of your combined 20+ years experience with fabrics with some of the initial claims vs. the reported performance of the Momentum 50 product.
Specifically, I was referencing your joint claims of Momentum 50's down-proofiness and water resistance. These claims have since been silently redacted, that is, there is no longer a mention of M50 on MLD's site and the product description on Thru-Hiker has been significantly altered.
If anyone is confused at what I am talking about you can see these screen captures. The first is a copy-and-paste Dustin Short did from the Thru-Hiker site shortly after M50 was announced. These second is a post of Ron's:
Notice the claims of down proofiness and "pretty good" DWR described by Ron. There have been reports of both escaping down and a not good water repellency. Those myriad reports are in direct contradiction with the claims initially made.
Since then some technical claims have been dropped from the ad copy on Thru-Hiker and MLD doesn't mention or use M50 any longer after switching to only using it as a sleeping bag liner for a short time. Momentum 55 has been introduced in an apparent bid to correct for the shortcomings of M50.
These changes in claims, discontinuance of the use of M50 by MLD, and replacement/correction of M50 by M55 was all despite the selection and supposed testing by two parties with a touted 20+ years experience in fabrics and of course the vigorous branding of the product.
I only brought this up because I think that there is some large discrepancy between the original claims by the branders, that is, you and "Ayce," of M50 and the in-field experiences of the purchasers of the product — the experiences of escaping down and less-than "pretty good" DWR.
You mention in the other thread that the difference in price between some of the quality of fabrics you've seen but chosen not to use and the fabrics you have gone with is only $2-3/yard. That was very interesting and enlightening to me.
Zohar is offering this 8Dx8D for $6 a yard. This is after what must be a considerable diseconomy of scale as it is shipping from South Korea to the US alone and the supplier undoubtably jacked up the price due to such a low MOQ. I imagine the price if ordered in a normal/industrial quantity is quite a bit lower. The applicable technical specs of weight, denier, and downproofiness are all comparable to M55 (@ $22/yard price point) and M50 (@ 20/yard price point) for my intended uses.
If nothing else the failures in testing or quality control or whatever it is that led to the M50 product being replaced by M55 and you and "Ayce" not standing by your claims draws into question the value of the branding and vetting that is brought to the table. And this is despite how renowned you are in the pioneering and production of fine ultralight gear.
Admittedly, I don't know much about the shady world of international fabric sales, but it seems like it's a confusing realm where even the most experienced can make some missteps and that's understandable. It also seems to me that these niche technical fabrics either have some oddly unacceptable level of variation in the production quality and availability or else there is a lot of FUD spread around by suppliers/producers, wholesalers, gear manufacturers, etc. and it serves their interests at the expense of the consumers down the line. Josh seems to have hinted that at least the suppliers/producers can be less than forthright, so I may be on to something.
Your offer is gracious. Thank you. I'll be in touch.Aug 12, 2011 at 8:22 am #1768591
Jerry AdamsBPL Member
@retiredjerryLocale: Oregon and Washington
I've thought about this. Can't go tooo wrong for $6 per yard. But I don't know…
To hikack thread, sorry:
I don't see what the problem is with the initial down-proof claims of M50. It's brand new so a conservative person would wait for some more people to use it. After some use they decided it's not really downproof.
Thanks Ron and Ayce (why do you put quotes around Ayce?) for introducing new products and mentioning them here. Don't let occasional criticism keep you from doing this in the future.Aug 12, 2011 at 8:54 am #1768606
Jake PalmerBPL Member
@jakep_82Locale: Pacific Northwest
"Pilate, now you are confusing. This is not Gear Swap."
Kudos for proving his point. Nailed it!
I'll take the risk. Put me down for 5 yards.Aug 12, 2011 at 9:22 am #1768620
My name is Paul Nanian, the owner of Thru-Hiker.com. AYCE is a trail name I picked up in '94 during my 1st thru-hike that stands for "all you can eat".
I am proud to have served the lightweight gearmaking community for 11 years now. It's a job I love and hope to continue to do for many years.
I continue to offer M90, M55, and M50– all 1st quality products that I stand behind 100%. If anyone has any questions or concerns regarding a product purchased from thru-hiker.com, please contact me directly.
Part of what makes the transition to these very small denier products difficult is that M90 worked so well for everything. M50 has not been discontinued or replaced by M55. M55 specifically addresses an application that requires a very high degree of water resistance: the splash bivy. This higher water resistance comes at a cost of lower breathability with respect to M50.
Pilate, I support your right to experess your opinion and wish you well in your gearmaking.Aug 12, 2011 at 9:48 am #1768629
Josh, it does have a cire and a DWR. I requested it from the manufacturerAug 12, 2011 at 10:09 am #1768634
I put quotes around "Ayce" merely because it is the trail name of Paul Nanian. I've seen nicknames written like this: Paul "Ayce" Nanian quite often and thought the convention useful.
I share your sentiments Jerry. I hope "Ayce" and Ron will continue kicking steps leading to that rarefied stratum where even the air is lighter! I hope they do this despite the times when someone points out their stellar, if less than perfect, track record in the vetting and branding of innovative fabrics.
;)Aug 12, 2011 at 11:01 am #1768664
According to Peter Yao, his father owns a fabric finishing facility, seperate from the mill he works for. So good on you for getting him to produce what you want. He has not always been so responsive in the past, he is a good salesman, but is not a technical guy. I have spoken with peter quite a bit about fabric development(specifically this 8D fabric), and what this industry wants to see. I'm glad to see them coming around to it. With a better DWR and and cire finish, it has the potential to be an alright fabric. The only other downside I will bring up is that actual weight(my samples) is closer to .73oz sq/yd, but so what. Going out on a limb here, I'll say order it. Let me know how much more $$$ you need, I'll fund the remaining unsold yardage, so you can get it ordered and on the way.Aug 12, 2011 at 11:25 am #1768678
Thank you very, very much! for the membership. Now that you have bought my attention and absolute loyalty, is there anything I can say for, or about you, in a positive light of course. Just send me a PM with the things you would like me to write, and I'll get right on it.
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