Why are you not a Member of BPL?

Brian,

Appreciate your input to the conversation, which I hope is valuable to those who are running BPL and deciding the future of this website.

I wish I could answer you question about the percentage of paying to non paying members, but I don't work for BPL.

I simply started this conversation with the hope of learning why people are not members and by extention, to learn what changes would need to be made to this website in content and function to encourage more people to become paying members.

To try to answer you question, I am assuming that the goal for the people who own and run the BPL sight is to make a profit.

For me, the ability to make a profit means that people can work on the website full time and additional money, in the form of profits, could be reinvested into improving the website and offering better content and experience to visitors to the sight.

I do like your idea of being able to capture a small percentage of the money in the transactions on the gear swap.

Any ideas on how to improve the BPL sight for user and how to generate revenue would be much appreciated.

-Tony

"Why are you not a Member of BPL?"

+ forums with a fair amount of people sharing stories and input
+ BPL seems organized with a vision (not just any other hiking site)
+ one of the bigger hubs online that talks gear
+ bundled trip-reports

– forum software
– none of the "benefits" of membership appeal to me
– as I live on another continent gear deals are not very beneficial
– sometimes it's a bit repeating

If the question is about gaining insight as to what is needed to save the future of the website. My guess: it would be better to jump on the "website with donations" train…or go for ads.

I think Jozef _____ summed things up pretty well in his post. I see the real (and for me only) value of this website in the forums, which have inadequate software. Just look at the menu, which includes: HOME, Articles, Shop, Community, Wiki, and School. Forget HOME and Shop is going away, while there's not much offered at the School or going on at the Wiki. The leaves community and articles. Honestly, when I look at the M articles, there's just not much that appeals to me. Also, I already get discounts from my local gear store.

Articles will always have limited value. I was reading trip reports on blogs and talking to friends before I ever saw this website (which I thought was just a forum). I backpack in northern New England, so there's not much I can't already find from the AMC or GMC guides, blogs, or my own experiences.

That said, I really like the idea of donations. I donate to the AMC and GMC already, and am much more likely to support that type of model. A friend of mine who ran bake sales for a local women's group in my area always told me that you NEVER set prices at a bake sale. She always said that people are much more likely to throw a couple extra bucks in the pot when they're donating.

I just discovered this site(2 months ago?) in an effort to lighten my load and I enjoy it immensely.

No interrupting advertisements is key for me! I don't mind some site related ads on the sides but anything like Backpacker magazine and I'm gone. Through the Forums and Reader Reviews, I have found those manufacturers that might advertise on here and I am preparing to buy some of these products. So their Un-advertising has worked well on me.

I may consider paying for the ad free site but, I have found in the past that any site with no revenue source beyond membership fees dies the death of a hobby bulletin board so my money would provide me nothing. And what is the point of having me pick a "screen name" and then display my real name along with it?

I will miss it if it is gone and I will enjoy it while it is here yet I know passionate geeks/bloggers will always find a place to ply their opinions… and Google will tell me where they are.

just do it … as long as it doesnt affect yr reviews … it doesnt matter

you dont need to accept ads from manufacturers … but i suspect online retailers will be more interested … you accept gear from manuf to test anyways

as to BPL … most of the recent articles have no value for me … i dont need to know about a UL pack whose review i can get elsewhere or on the forums … you can get trip reports anywhere else for free

what matters to me are factual articles on techniques … mr caffins article on gas canisters was the last good one i saw

since then there hasnt been anything that made me want to renew

The only other ad-free paying forum/site I frequent is eGullet, where you only have to pay to post, and the donation can be from $5-hundreds. But the forums are far more advanced than these. And every article is free.

I joined in 2009, if I remember correctly, because there was a particular article I wanted to read. I renewed as a Lifer at my first anniversary, because I hate payment reminders and I figured there would probably be some articles that I would be interested in the next 5 years. I certainly plan to be camping for longer that that.

I like the trip reports. But I get more of them from the dozen blogs I follow than from BPL. The vast majority of the the other articles are glanced at but not often read.

I used to like the forums. Still like the MYOG threads. Some of you peeps have amazing skills. Wish I could make my thread injector do that.

Now that I have been here a while the rest seem repetitive. No offense to the referenced individual, but I am sick of hearing it repeated how he likes to manage his excrement process. Seems to come up a lot regardless of the topic. And there seems to be a lot of opinionated, but not very helpful, folks that bring the tone down. Perhaps cutting out the Chaff section and staying on target would be an improvement, but that might require the moderators to moderate. I don't know if they get paid for that.

I'll never be UL, much less SUL or XUL or whatever comes after that. My 42# canoe assures me of that. But I have dropped 10# of extraneous crap and lightened up the big 3, so I'm OK with that.

So would I do it over again? Probably not. Are there refunds for Lifers with a change of heart?

Well, since you asked, and I'm glad you did :)
As a green newbie, I became a member a yr ago and recently rejoined after letting it lapse, missing the rejoin incentive, but at the time it just wasn't feasible (there was a good chance I was going to be laid off from my teaching job). I first have to say that I love this site, I have learned so much! But truthfully, most of that knowledge has come from the forums. I recently went with a group of "non-enlightened" packers and was stunned to see the weight they were carrying! I was eyed suspiciously for my 20 lb total wt. pack. I had to hear more than once that my Steripen was ineffective and unreliable. I also got the same treatment about not wearing hiking boots. It was hysterical really. I didn't preach about UL gear to anyone, but just laughed to myself as on the last day of the trip the same negative ones were complaining about their knees and feet :) I on the other hand felt great…but I didn't rub it in.( I'm a nice person:))

Anyway I will recap some of the posts that I can relate to. +++1 on all.

Chris Wallace: Maybe a recurring column from people like Ryan and similar others? Mike C.? Andrew Skurka? Dave C.?

Doug Ide: Even if you have an editor culling great blog posts and posting them here (with permission, of course) with links to the original blog, you could easily and cheaply add some stellar content. Dave Chenault's and Roman Dial's blogs are an exemplary example of this, for just two. There are many, many others. You could start a new 'blog' section where you add such posts – I think it'd be popular.

Daniel Allen: Maybe make the SUL forum for members only? Those zealots will pay almost anything, right?! ;-) LOL!!!!!! I know that was said tongue in cheek, but it was just stupid funny.

Kat P. If my yearly membership can help keep this site going, that is worth it enough for me. I don't need any extra perks compared to non members.

Mary D: (1) A larger number and wider variety of articles each week, about techniques and trips as well as gear.

(2) An easily findable list of articles for beginners to which we can refer people just starting out, many of whom post on other forums with which I'm involved. This particular aspect, IMHO, should be free as a public service. They should be updated every few years. The old "Backpacking 101" is a prime example–in fact, just updating that article (10 years old now) would be sufficient. Having this public service base to which to refer beginners would bring in a lot more members here–consider it advertising!

Matt Tallman : In light of the time I've spent on other forums, which actually have useful features like a search, the ability to easily quote/reply to other users, doesn't require someone to insert a goofy subject line to reply, allows links, has a functional private message system, etc. the list goes on.

Yuki Maki : Trip reports + pictures = crack for outdoor junkies.

Gerry Volpe: I still think this is a top notch community of people and an excellent resource more than deserving of financial support.

Aaron Benson: I "heart" BPL, so please be careful – your Customers are talking. ;)

Lastly, I have found this site, especially the forums, but articles too, to be invaluable to someone just getting into the sport (the right way) and I do spread the work when people ask about my gear. I hope it will continue to thrive.

I'm a member since it isn't that much money for me. I have a full time job. ;)

And I like to support what I enjoy. I paid for a membership to help fund the site, not for any benefits although I have gotten a lot of good info. Enjoy the trip reports and some of the articles.

The SotM reports are fun just to keep up to date.

I also buy annual park passes even when I won't get the use out of them…my way of supporting what I enjoy!

I find it interesting that people are scrutinizing a $25/year purchase far more carefully than their titanium stoves, sporks, or cuben rain skirts.

This doesn't excuse BPL for losing sight of their competitive advantage and failing to offer compelling value.

Knowledge is wealth and experience is treasure. Investing in obtaining knowledge and richer experiences is guaranteed to make us all rich. BPL needs to focus on providing knowledge not available elsewhere, and experiences that all levels can revel in, either first- or second-hand.

Curtis

First I'd like to agree with Curtis. People say $25 is "too much", but isn't knowledge supposed to be our greatest piece of gear?

In line with that comment, the biggest reason I haven't joined is because if I'm going to pay anything, I'd rather pay the one time fee for the life membership than constantly pay each year. Right now that's not in my budget but I'm hoping it will be soon.

When I do become a member, I'd like to see a lot of the same sort of things that everyone else has been mentioning, like trip reviews. I'd love to see video articles. As someone who is fairly new to backpacking, I've learned the most from watching videos of people trying stuff in their homes, backyards and on trails. There is nothing better than being able to be shown how to do something. For example, it's one thing to tell someone how to set up a low profile UL campsite, it's another to show someone what that looks like in a real life situation.

And that leads me to my other favorite idea I've seen mentioned here, Columnists! I would totally pay money to read a weekly or monthly column and/or some videos by guys like Mike C. and Andrew. Mike's Books are what got me into UL Backpacking in the first place because reading his stuff is fun and engaging and his cartoons helped me visualize the ideas being discussed. Guys like that make ideas really accessible and doable for the average person.

P.S. I don't know if this is something Members get or not, but I'd love to see some articles and stuff geared toward women every now and again and if that's something that does happen in the Members only articles I'd be much more likely to go member.

If the site decided to go 'for-pay' only then I would just go somewhere else. I would feel more comfortable donating my money to an enthusiast run site rather than a for-profit company.

Who's to say I didn't scrutinize my spork purchase as well? (If you can call being solicited for feedback as scrutinizing).

Like others, I really dislike the forum software and PM system. FWIW.

But overall, reading through this thread, there seems to have emerged two broad audiences: those who mostly see this site is a business and those who mostly see this site as a community.

While I belong to the latter, I certainly take no exception at all to those who see it as a business.

I would, however, offer this (with, truly, no malice or insult intended), I think, perhaps, many who seem to see this site as a community are a bit discouraged that the community leader seemed to stop seeing it as a community and instead began seeing it as a business some time ago, and a somewhat neglected side business at that. Which has, perhaps, caused some who used to see it as a community to now see it as a business, and one not quite worthy of their financial investment.

"I would, however, offer this (with, truly, no malice or insult intended), I think, perhaps, many who seem to see this site as a community are a bit discouraged that the community leader seemed to stop seeing it as a community and instead began seeing it as a business some time ago, and a somewhat neglected side business at that. Which has, perhaps, caused some who used to see it as a community to now see it as a business, and one not quite worthy of their financial investment."

To me, this is certainly where the confusion for many may exist.

An example:
http://ryanjordan.com/blog/2011/05/group-gear-for-lightweight-wilderness-travel/

A great article on group gear on Ryan's blog.
There was just a long, ongoing discussion/debate about shared gear on the BPL forums a while ago; I thought this article did a great job of highlighting many of the issues discussed in a clear, concise manner.

But was it on BPL?
Nope.

Then, if you read the article, you'll notice that at the bottom there's a solicitation to learn more through either the backpacking boot camp (I presume the same one being pitched through BPL?) or through Ryan's personal online courses/mentoring. But it's becoming hard to tell which is which.
Which really leaves one wondering, who's in charge of what at BPL?
Nothing against Ryan, but it strikes me that his personal site is beginning to directly compete with BPL in some ways…content, classes, etc. If you follow both sites, there certainly seems to be more of an effort on Ryan's to create a thriving business.
So when the question arises- why should I pay for BPL?, when it's uncertain who or what is behind BPL these days? It seems that much of the energy that Ryan poured into this site years ago has been shifted into personal endeavors, that again, seem to compete with what BPL was started for.

I've got no horse in this race either way and don't think we need a cult of personality to run BPL…but I think the mission/purpose of BPL has gotten seriously confused as compared to 5 years ago, and it shows.

I'd not seen Ryan's site until you linked to it, Craig. Interesting that there are levels of paid subscriptions there, too.
…$25/year here – $5/month for the 'basic' Letters, there. [/off topic note]

Man I had never seen that ryanjordancotcom before. I've been around a few years, and kinda know what Craig is getting at. (and Doug, too)

After seeing his website… yeah what's up with that? Its really weird. Why make BPL, then make a presumably refined version of it elsewhere? Wouldn't you want to talk about it on the first website to get it popular too? Then you can pit you against yourself in a BPL vs RYJ in a UL barbed-wire landmine death match for UL website supremacy.

No, seriously he was just ashamed at the footprints vs LNT rants, elitism, and thread-endism, and wanted to make a family-friendly version that he could show his inlaws

i don't mind paying the yearly fee. i appreciate the forums and would be willing to pay for them if required. assuming the forums were still as valuable as I see them today.

the BPL vs RJ stuff. i have been watching his blog for sometime and i guess i saw the recent upgrade as an evolution of BPL, i.e. looking for a long term sustainable income. i guess BPL doesn't seem like a cash cow.

how many yearly members are there? 500 only brings in $12,500. hardly seems like enough cash flow to live on.

i guess i don't understand the concern about his blog going more commercial???

The STATE OF BPL, as it may appear from the outside:
1. No participation in forums by founder in three months, yet he blogs and tweets regularly. His blog is incorporated into this site, but to respond to a post you must leave the site.
2. Closing gear shop.
3. WTS (school) doesn't appear to be happening this year (or ever?) since no trips posted for fall and it's mid July, yet trips (online courses with optional trek) are sold out on founder's blog site and even advertised here separately from WTS.
4. Not much happening in the wiki.
5. The community (forum) is busy as always.
6. The articles (couple a week) keep coming with good content. Last article by founder is April.

It looks like RJ has mostly delegated BPL to others and is doing his own thing. It seems BPL should be answering member questions about the changes. I wonder how many more days that will take ; ).

I joined as an Mlife to support BPL into the future. I love the articles and reviews as well as the forums. Great information and input from the community. However, I must say I was very curious as to what Ryan was doing with his separate site. Seems no matter how you slice it his new site will cannibalize the BPL site. It also telegraphs a message to the community that at this point is not answered, “what is Ryan’s Priority”?
This really is one of the best sites around for UL information. I'd really like for BPL to stick around. There – that's my $100.00 bucks!

Just for clarification on the WTS thing, the UL Backpacking Bootcamp course is being offered through a partnership design. There may also be another more advanced course offered in the same fashion later in the year.

My hope is that things will be retooled and we'll be able to offer the longer courses in the Rockies along with shorter courses in regional areas for 2012. Unfortunately, we are primarily limited by what the USDA/USFS will allow us to offer. We've gotten extremely lucky the last couple of years with getting a permit since most of the districts have been doing use studies, and not allotting any commercial days for temporary permits.

I'm a contract employee, as are most (maybe all?) of the BPL staff so I only have limited insight with my area. I'm pretty sure Ryan has been out of town for at least the last week, but I've made sure to alert him to this thread so we can get an official response.

How much longer for a reply indeed. I too feel like there is some conflict of interest between this site and Ryan's own. How about trying to fix things here instead of running off to do your own thing. Making promises and not delivering is uncool.

As an update, it looks like Ryan should be back in town tomorrow so we can probably expect an official response then.

@evan swanson: you're a Bastard. every time im out in the wild for 3 days eating twigs and berries, im gonna think of your medium-grilled ribeye avatar. thanks for that. ;)

" many who seem to see this site as a community are a bit discouraged that the community leader seemed to stop seeing it as a community and instead began seeing it as a business some time ago, and a somewhat neglected side business at that. "

+1

I fail to see why there is the perception that having a successful business that is also your life's passion that has the ability support your family is somehow considered selling out or a bad thing.

Most people would say if you could have a livelihood that was around backpacking and sharing that love/passion with others it would be a dream come true.

Why can't someone have a profitable business that also creates a passionate communities of like minded people?

That said, I do find it a bit puzzling why Ryan Jordan's website and the BPL website are not merged into one website- the BPL website.

Just looking at an expenditure of time and resources, it seems like an inefficient and possible duplication of money and time to have two websites.

However, I would disagree that BPL has been neglected.

Recent events, such as the decision to close the gear shop, shows the beginning of what I hope is a renewal, reinvention, and vast improvement of BPL in the future.

Could things be better or different in the past?

Yes….which is why this thread exist.

Though many of the complaints and issues that have been raised are valid, I do think that it is getting away from the intent of this thread:

How can this website be improved for the betterment of the community and for the people who's livelihood revolves around maintaining the BPL website?

Things that stand out to me so far are:

1. Underlying website technology needs to be vastly improved

2. Easier & more effective search and private messaging system

3. More relevant content that appeals to new and seasoned backpackers

4. More articles on in the field techniques, using the gear vs. gear reviews

5. Video review and reports to more easily show people how to use gear

6. Photo essays, trip reports, video reports that inspire people to take trips

7. Articles, blogs, weekly columns from Ryan Jordan- the face of BPL

8. Easily accessible content, articles aimed at the traditional backpacker

9. BPL outreach/events around different parts of the country, classes, trips??

10. Quality & Content more reminiscent of the old print version of BPL magazine?

11. Content not so United States Centric. (Guest authors from other countries)

We do have an incredibly passionate and intelligent community here. Why not leverage just a fraction of the energy that we put into researching and selecting our gear into finding ways to help make this a better place for all of us. As people have said, the best thing about BPL is the community of users and the vast wealth of knowledge they have and are so eager to share with others.

Any other things that people would like to see that they think would encourage visitors to become paying members or to simply make the sight better for the community?

-Tony