Dysfunctional Pack Design :)

Of course its just a matter of opinion and what works for you. If you want a lid then use one. If not then no worries.
I just want to add if you notice most AT thru-hikers in GA have lids and if you check in further up north the vast majority of those same people have removed them.

I agree with Serge on this. Guy must've been well educated.

I've been leaving my lid at home more often than not for a long time, back into my Dana Design days (and climbing days, for that matter).

This is a pretty preposterous subject for evangelism.

"First off, in my opinion, they just kind of look stupid…"

You're talking to a community of people that have been known to use stuff sacks as camp shoes, bread bags as waterproof footwear, wear down quilt ponchos with down hats, use cuben fiber rain CHAPS, and experiment with closed-cell foam pads as insulating layers…

"This is a pretty preposterous subject for evangelism."

Amen brother.

I don't think there is anything preposterous about saying it's dysfunctional. Everyone gets to have their opinions. I've owned enough packs in my 37 years of backpacking, to form an opinion based on first hand experience. There are some packs with top lids that were pretty heavy, I admit. Some were even fanny packs, when removed like Dana, Osprey, Kelty and couple others I can't remember. If made out of lightweight stuff, they would probably weigh less than the extra material used to roll down on top of packs without lids.

They could even be made out of mostly mesh, or cuben and a little zipper pocket, for keys or small things, that I don't want to loose or hunt for. They give form to the pack and keep things snug and horn-less ;). Also, it doesn't take any longer to unbuckle a lid than it does to unbuckle and unroll a lid-less pack.

Doesn't that huckePack have a top lid? Man, they were thinking.:)

I strongly suspect that one person's "dysfunctional" is the next person's "useful"!

Having gone straight from an external frame pack to a lightweight one with no lid, I've never missed the lid! Nor do I see the need for one. I do like the outside pockets, so I can keep wet stuff (shelter) and items I need frequently during the day (water bottle, snacks) handy (my shelter goes in one side pocket and my water and snacks in the other). That front mesh pocket is a great place to dry wet socks. For me, a pack lid would be unnecessary weight. If you want one, though, there are many different packs with lids available, and a couple of the firms making ultralight packs sell lids separately for those who want them.

Get the pack that works for you, but please realize that not everyone wants the same thing!

Personally, I could not see having a pack without at least side pockets. I carry (2) 1 qt Gator-Aid bottles in my side pockets and access these while on the go. I can stop at available water source's too while in route, without needing to remove my pack, whick you need to do when carrying a water-bladder. I would not go without hip-belt or shoulder strap pockets either. I keep Aqua-Mira in my hip-belt pockets which is also how I aquire and treat water on-the-go. I like my front pocket too, but also like the larger detachable McHale Utility front pocket, which is where I place my tarp, bivy, and Neo-Air. This allows me to set up my shelter, without ever needing to dig into my pack,until after the shelter is set-up. This is great for when its raining as after the tarp is up, I can access the rest of my gear while staying dry.

I ackowledge that most people find pockets useful, and don't find it necesary to evangelize about it, but…

There's no reason to drink water more often than once an hour or so, so if it takes one minute to put your pack down and get a bottle out it's no big deal

The water will be a little cooler which I like

And I prefer my pack to be one tight package that doesn't shift around or make noises

I agree with the whole poofy side pocket argument, especially if they are made from a loosely woven mesh material. These poofy side pockets end up snagging every bush and branch they can find. On paper they are nice but in actual usage they are a bit over rated. I think its a bad design and think woven stretch side pockets that go tight against the pack or no no side pockets at all are the only way to go. Lids, frames and panel loaders are also nice functional features but most people think they weigh to much. Remember opinions are like a–holes. Everyone has one.

I never really thought that roll top lids were a very elegant solution. I agree that they are a little sloppy. I know that they are supposed to allow for an extension, but personally I would rather strap something on top of my Jam2 than fill up the extension collar especially since I have never used it and yet always have to carry it.
I wonder if the extra fabric that is rolled up is enough to make a lid? Some of the old skool lid attachments also double as compression straps. I think panel loaders look cleaner too. Look at packs like the Ion.
I have the MLD lid and if fits on my Jam and it does look nicer with the lid but I haven't used it yet, I just got it as an option to make my pack more versatile.
This is all very subjective of coarse!

"There's no reason to drink water more often than once an hour or so, so if it takes one minute to put your pack down and get a bottle out it's no big deal."

No reason?

I can think of a few reasons off the top of my head.

Temperatures higher than the mild temps and humid air you see up in the PNW perhaps may warrant more frequent drinking. How about ascending above treeline under a warm summer sun? Or perhaps hiking midday across a mesa in New Mexico in June with less than 10% humidity? Or if a full day of hiking is >30 miles a day?

The roll top is the simplest no-brain option for a pack, a big fabric tube with a gaping orifice at the top and some string… brilliant! It's not the most pleasing to the eye but I'm a firm believer in aesthetic subjectivism.

"Temperatures higher than the mild temps and humid air you see up in the PNW perhaps may warrant more frequent drinking."

Okay, good point, I forget there are hot places

Lids are what they are: lids. Use one if you like or just go without. I like them because I can put all the small fidly stuff in it that I need to get to. And even more importantly, all the smelly stuff that needs to go into a bear canister at the end of the day. Then I don't have to scour my pack, I just get those items out of the convient lid pocket and I'm done. Hike your own hike as somebody said earlier. Amen. And as another said, it's not worth evangelizing. Clearly correct.

Don't evangelize about hiking your own hike.

;)

^^^^^^^

ha!

Dave URE wrote:

"As far as aesthetics, I would think that most of use can't actually see the pack we are carrying when it is on our backs so probably not a real issue here – top pocket or not."

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've read for a while, and shows a lack of understanding of what aesthetics actually means.

I can't see my head all day, but I care about my hairstyle and how I present myself, like everyone else.

Aesthetics are a crucial part of our decision making process. We first judge people based on how they choose to present themsleves to us, and choose products we prefer based on visual appeal and good design that is fit for intended purpose.
How many pink and lime green packs do you own, Dave?

Good design follows through into confidence of a tool fit for purpose and if a lid suits your purpose, and appeals to your aesthetic, go for it!

For some people it is a real issue, and universally dismissing it sounds pompous and ill informed to me.

4c de nada this time.

I can make an argument either way. Lids and exterior pockets can make a pack much easier to live out of. Mesh pockets are great, because you can see what's in them, unless you are one who always puts stuff exactly in the same location… I am not that organized. Mesh does catche on stuff.

My main pack, a McHale BPL 36 has a lid, two water pockets, two hip belt pockets, and a should strap pocket. Mostly I use none of them, and hike with the pack stripped down. In cold winter/wet/snow, I really like the top lid for quick access to stuff like gloves, wool hat, wind jacket, etc. On really long hikes with fairly flat trails where I may be hiking several hours at a time without a rest, the hip belt pockets are nice for snacks and stuff. When I have to carry a lot of water, the side water pockets are nice as they each easily hold 2 liters each nice and secure.

It really is a personal preference for each hiker as to what works best.

I would not call the pack design dysfunctional. I prefer a lid with pocket for small quickly needed items. It serves me as a stuff sack. I don't care for hip pockets much though. Currently I use a Aarn pack with front pouches (different for sure) and like them very much as well as the other design features of this pack. I have tried serveral different styles of packs and this one works for me.

Hip belt pocket have replaced the functionality of a lid pocket for me. In my HW pack the lid detached into a day pack and was quite useful as I didn't need to carry a 5lb backpack on side trips. Now that the UL pack is so light you don't need the daypack functionality so all I really needed was a few small pockets for the days snacks, Water Treatment, First Aid and a camera. Hip pockets for me work very well so I find a lid unessessary. I also wouldn't trade the extention collar space you get for a lid as I do fill the extension collar with extra food for longer trips so it enhances the usuiblity of the pack.

You might want to take a look at the zPacks lid that Joe Valesko makes. It might fit your needs.

" Eric not to point out the obvious but this is a backpacking forum and not a climbing forum. "

Some people are here to lighten their gear to facilitate other activities in addition to backpacking, for one thing. Mountaineers do a lot of backpacking. They just don't stop there.

"Assuming we're talking equivalent weights, what pockets and where seems way more like a personal preference adapted to technique than a matter of dys/function, no?"

That should get a resounding "yes."

I personally like having a top pocket on my MaHale pack, because I can put items that I want quick access to in there, and organize the rest of my gear around how I intend to use it, for the most part. Of course, mine's made of Dyneema so it's exceptionally light, but I don't carry more stuff because I have the pocket, I just organize it differently, and carry one less stuff sack to accomplish the same thing. It's pretty close to an even trade in terms of weight, but the lid is easier to get stuff from when I stop on the trail.

Dysfunctional is a pretty strong term but at least it has generated some interesting and lively debate, and it's "forced" me to add my own 2c. Obviously there is no perfect pack design for everybody and every environment, that's why there are so many pack manufacturers, not to mention MYOGer's and those who cut down packs to suit (I do).

For me here in the trackless and pack-eating bush of eternally wet New Zealand, external
mesh pockets are useless. The simpler, more robust and more waterproof the pack the better. My current pack is essentially a simple 45 litre tube with a drawstring sock to close the top opening, which is covered with a lid and lid pocket. The lid pocket contains everything I will used during the day: map and compass (sometimes GPS) pocket knife, headlamp, TP, snacks and camera.

"For me here in the trackless and pack-eating bush of eternally wet New Zealand, external
mesh pockets are useless. The simpler, more robust and more waterproof the pack the better. My current pack is essentially a simple 45 litre tube with a drawstring sock to close the top opening, which is covered with a lid and lid pocket. The lid pocket contains everything I will used during the day: map and compass (sometimes GPS) pocket knife, headlamp, TP, snacks and camera."

That kinda sounds like 'form follows function.' Aren't ounces or grams more important ;)

"That kinda sounds like 'form follows function.' Aren't ounces or grams more important ;)"

Only on this website! :)

Posted 06/20/2011 13:21:38 MDT by Douglas Ide (idester)
You might want to take a look at the zPacks lid that Joe Valesko makes. It might fit your needs.

Thanks Douglas, I saw that one. I wish I could see how they attached in real life, to my pack. I like the idea of one strap on the synch end. It would be cool, if it could integrate with the existing buckle, somehow, as I'm sort of concerned about extra straps hanging everywhere. I might be better off just starting from scratch.