Dysfunctional Pack Design :)

Well, I respectfully disagree with your premise that the pack design is dysfunctional.

As far as the horns, it's not necessary to have them. When I close my single-strap pack, I roll it down a couple of times, then fold the ends in and roll it a couple more times, then secure with strap. No horns at all.

As far as something trapping rain, et. al., I've never had that issue, even when I was too lazy to fold in the ends. Not sure why you're trapping all kinds of stuff in yours. But if you really want a lid, seems it would be exceptionally easy to just take a piece of cuben or sil, rectangular in body but tapered to a point at each end, that just goes over the top and attaches to either your side pockets or side straps, whichever you have.

When I switched to UL packs I agreed with you however after using a pack without a lid for the past three and half years, I couldn't ever see myself going back. Simplicity is beauty.

The only reason I could ever see to use a lid pocket is that it's so difficult to get inside the main compartment. And why is it so hard to get inside the main compartment? Why, because the ^&*(% lid pocket is in the way.

Once I figured that out, I never wanted or needed a lid pocket again.

I just removed the top lids from two packs and converted them to roll-top. The roll-tops clip into the side straps that used to hold down the lids, so no 'horns.' I doubt I'll put the lids back on.

i do definitely admit that the lid is useful …

its a great place to store your headlamp, snacks, hand sanitizer and other misc things

now hikers can of course use side or mesh pockets … but when yr climbing u want something as streamlined as possible …

try being 10 pitches up at a hanging belay and rummaging through yr pack for that headlamp as night falls without dropping anything important …

I don't like lids…I prefer to keep it simple.

Top pockets are horribly redundant on an UL pack. The whole idea of packing UL is to minimize the amount of gear. Put your chapstick in your pocket. You will be fine.

Heck – most Mchale packs are made without a top pocket and the packs have heritage as alpine climbing packs….

http://www.mchalepacks.com/ultralight/index.htm

odd … most of the mchale packs on their UL page have pockets of some time … not necessarily lids

note that the "gold standard" climbing packs, cilogear, CCW, etc … most of them come with lids … whether you choose to use em or not is of course yr choice

while "UL" packs may not have lids … a lot of them have hip pockets … a "true UL" pack (whatever that is) doesnt need any pockets … or mesh for that matter … but then i dont think youll find anyone arguing that MLD, SMD, GG etc arent UL packs despite having pockets

people use what they prefer … there is no "correct" answer unless all you want is something that weights the least … in which case you should just get some custum zpack zero with no options … dont see a ton of people using those ;)

Eric not to point out the obvious but this is a backpacking forum and not a climbing forum. I'm not trying to be a jerk but I think those things bring different challenges and requirements for gear. I appreciate your background. The decisions made on any gear are personal preference but using a climbing example to illustrate a pro to having a lid vs. not on a backpacking forum is not extremely helpful. Once again I'm not trying to be a jerk just thought I would point it out.

"Top pockets are horribly redundant on an UL pack. The whole idea of packing UL is to minimize the amount of gear."

You are confusing UL and Minimalism. In Minimalism the idea is to minimize the amount of gear. In UL the idea is to minimize the WEIGHT of gear.

I never liked the roll top. It seems like a lot of extra fabric is needed, adding more weight. On my GG Whisper, I cut off the extra fabric and added a drawstring. Also, on my other packs, I like the light lid with a light weight pocket. As others have said, the pocket makes small, important things quick and easy to find.

"You are confusing UL and Minimalism. In Minimalism the idea is to minimize the amount of gear. In UL the idea is to minimize the WEIGHT of gear."

Not sure I agree with this (okay, that's a lie, I am sure I don't….). UL incorporates minimalism. UL is both the complementary ideas of minimizing the amount of gear (take only what you need and try to have multiple uses for as much of what you carry as you can) WHILE simultaneously minimizing the weight of that gear you do carry.

@George – Nope, incorrect. The two are completely intertwined. Even if you choose to carry trad gear, if you minimize the trad gear you carry you lighten the load. For most UL'ers that have made the switch from traditional backpacking, they first dropped items (minimizing) and then lightened the items that they deemed necessary.

Thanks Doug.

'odd … most of the mchale packs on their UL page have pockets of some time … not necessarily lids'

Really? I think you need to look a little more closely because I assume you are not referring to front pockets or bottle wands….

Clio gear? Climbing packs? This thread is about climbing packs? What's next – a discussion about climbers who use the Jetboil?

; )

nope … its about top pockets

you said "Top pockets are horribly redundant on an UL pack. The whole idea of packing UL is to minimize the amount of gear. Put your chapstick in your pocket. You will be fine."

my point is that pockets are a preference … side pockets or hip pockets are not "needed" either … just a preference

yet no one calls the cottage makers that make those packs not "UL"

Soon you will telling me that a top pocket is a luxury and we all have luxuries. A top pocket is unnecessary and hence, it is not required to maximize one's UL backpacking experience. Ergo, it is dead weight.

and we can go over and over again …

the side pockets here arent "needed" either

nor the ones here …

nor the hip pockets here …

etc ..

sure people PREFER em .. but you dont NEED em

i wont tell people what packets they should or should not have or use … its up to them

i will say that i prefer a top pocket myself

the thing about the internet is that there are plenty of people who tell ya what you should or should not have … and what is "UL"

;)

Clay, Being someone that owns both types of packs, I think the 'dysfuntional' term is a bit over the top. Both designs can and will work to your needs, it just depends on your personal preference. I am in agreement with you on liking my packs with the top lid better though. For me, I really missed not having the top lid on my lighter packs and I will take the few ounce 'penalty' of having easy access to items that I use throughout the day without digging into my pack. The roll top designs work quite well and can add to the overall compression of the pack if done right.

Assuming we're talking equivalent weights, what pockets and where seems way more like a personal preference adapted to technique than a matter of dys/function, no?

I'd agree that packs with lids look better. I don't care too much how I look out there: just bought a sunday afternoons adventure hat, so with that I've basically thrown out all hopes of style in the backcountry ;)

I haven't used a lid since my first (non UL) pack 10 years ago, and I haven't missed it. I don't think packs with lids are more functional than packs without them.

I'll take simplicity over minimalism (but sometimes they overlap). Having mesh pockets may complicate the design aesthetic, but for me they simplify functionality.
IMO, hipbelt pockets earn their weight with functionality, but lids don't…etc etc….these are all factors we tend to suss out according to our own personal criteria.

Its cool that there tends to be a philosophy that goes with UL backpacking, but I don't think its important that we nail down some defining set of principles beyond whats in the name.

My first UL packs were ones I made myself by modifying more traditional packs. The first thing I did was cut the lid off. It has always seemed to me like a lot of weight for not much storage. I much prefer mesh pockets.

I like pack lids for aesthetic reasons and practical reasons. I'm not into side pockets either, as I hike up to peaks and they get in the way going up tight spaces or go bush bashing through forests. I don't have a problem stopping for a drink and opening the pack to get some water- an amazing concept for some, but I'm never in a hurry anyway.
I've tried lots of UL packs without lids, ULA Circuit, Amp, Relay; GG Murmur, and find that I can't get my head around the closures on these packs, and they always look and feel a bit odd, for me. They always have too much fabric floating around which I find gets in the way.
I'm stuck on my Golite Ion and my NF Verto 26- they work well for me, tidy, and clean lines.
I'm an artist, so maybe I'm a bit fussy about the visual side of things.
Hike your own hike- but I try to be the best dressed and cleanest looking guy (gear wise) on the mountain, 'cause thats just me.
2c de nada, I suppose.

Eric – you aren't serious, are you?

The side pockets are for water bottles and the front pocket is meant to split the main bag into two parts – one for dry gear and one for wet. And a top pocket is for……?

As far as aesthetics, I would think that most of use can't actually see the pack we are carrying when it is on our backs so probably not a real issue here – top pocket or not.

i dont use side pockets or water bottles … and i just strap any wet gear to the top, no need for mesh

so they are pointless for me

or are ya going to tell me not using side bottles is not ul ;)

plenty of people use packs without side bottles or pockets just fine … no "need" for em … its just preference

I agree, pockets are unnecesary

They add weight, weaken the pack, make it less waterproof, stuff tends to fall out of pockets, water bottle warms up or freezes, stuff rattles around, or weight shifts

It takes a few seconds to open main pack – you have to put stuff you'll need during the day on top – water, food, extra clothing, TP, water treatment,…