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Protocol B Version 1 Procedure and Test Results


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Viewing 25 posts - 26 through 50 (of 111 total)
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  • #1718164
    Dan Durston
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    I got this 0.33oz cuben from Quest in a 1 yd piece. It came folded up into a fairly small packet. I unfolded it once to cut off a piece and then re-folded it up to fit into a small ziplock bag. It wasn't unfolded again until I unfolded it to cut this sample. So Quest folded it once and I unfolded/folded/unfolded it. I think the reason that it looks quite a bit more wrinkled than the 1.26oz sample is because 0.33oz cuben creases and wrinkles much easier. 1.26 oz cuben is much stiffer, so it's more resistant to creases/wrinkles.

    #1718168
    Javan Dempsey
    Member

    @jdempsey

    Locale: The-Stateless-Society

    Gotta say I'm pretty surprised the .33oz stuff had an HH that high, simply considering the fragility of the shell laminates.

    I expect that stuff to really degrade with "aging", just from my experience working with it. I'd be really curious to see how mylar film of the equivalent thickness as used in this laminate would fare solo. With the thin stuff, it's easy to see how over time the spectra would impede those numbers since mylar stretches and the spectra doesn't.

    Very interesting to see this progress.

    #1718517
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    Every new submission will have its initial test result published the day that it is received. This will occur regardless if the aging test cycles may have started for the first batch's submissions. We will stop accepting new submissions when we decide to end Protocol B batch aging tests (explained below).

    My plan is to begin aging tests on all coated submissions (Cuben, silnylon, sil/PU nylon, and PU coated nylon/polyester) in multiple batches. All submissions received by this Saturday mid-day will be categorized as the first batch submissions. Before my local post office closes this Saturday, all virgin submissions received to date, will be shipped to Roger Caffin. The submission number, determined by the order received, followed by the letter (A) is labeled with a permanent marker in the upper left corner for each submission. These (A) sample submissions are the ones that I have posted virgin results for in the Protocol B thread.

    I will begin aging tests for the submissions labeled (B) in the upper left corner will then be shipped to Roger via BPL Bozeman.

    A new batch aging cycle will begin after the prior one ends. Additional batches will continue to be aged only until the point that Roger and I agree that enough data has been collected for any reasonable person to draw an informed conclusion; other commitments in our lives dictate that we suspend Protocol B testing; or some new protocol is required to resolve unanswered questions.

    In parallel with the above heavy testing schedule, I will attempt to honor the requests for higher resolution micrographs and micrographs at more testing stages. I have begun to look at options to accomplish these requests. I will propose a new micrograph plan and provide sample results for review and discussion by the end of next week.

    #1718572
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    c

    Detailed Fabric Description:http://www.seattlefabrics.com/nylons.html#1.3 oz RS

    Supplemental Information from Seattle Fabrics:
    1.3 oz. silicone impregnated 30 denier, high tenacity, bright nylon ripstop with heat and light inhibitors. This amazing fabric has a tear strength of 15 pounds. Using this material is a great way to reduce weight.

    Supplemental information from Richard Nisley:
    According to ISO 811, materials with a hydrostatic head of more than 150 cm (1,500mm) can be designated, in general, as rainproof.

    200X bottom lit micrograph to illustrate weave density voids

    b

    #1718600
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    c

    Detailed Fabric Description:http://www.seattlefabrics.com/nylons.html#poly ctd rs

    Supplemental Information from Seattle Fabrics:
    1.9 oz. sq. yd. before coating 70 Denier. This urethane coated nylon has a strong thread that goes up and across the fabric forming tear resistant squares. It has 8-10lb tear strength. The addition of urethane coating makes this a strong yet lightweight waterproof fabric for many uses.

    Supplemental information from Richard Nisley:
    According to ISO 811, materials with a hydrostatic head of more than 150 cm (1,500mm) can be designated, in general, as rainproof.

    200X bottom lit micrograph to illustrate weave density voids

    2

    #1718623
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    c

    Supplemental Information from Seattle Fabrics:
    1.9 oz. sq yd before coating 70 Denier. The silicone coating is lighter than a polyurethane coating and the silicone coated ripstop has a 16-18 lb tear strength making it more tear resistant than the polyurethane coated ripstop. Be sure to use a silicone sealer on the seams

    Supplemental information from Richard Nisley:
    According to ISO 811, materials with a hydrostatic head of more than 150 cm (1,500mm) can be designated, in general, as rainproof.

    200X bottom lit micrograph to illustrate weave density voids

    2

    #1719668
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    a

    A single Protocol B aging cycle results in rapid degradation of all common light weight shelter fabrics other than Epic Alpine. There is no point of doing additional aging cycles for batch submission 1 due to the dramatic reductions in HH experienced for most products. If other batch submissions are needed, a "Delicate" wash cycle will probably provide a small enough HH reduction granularity that it can be plotted.

    I took pictures of every test head position and created a written record of the general locations of the major voids for each CTF3 (Cuben) test. This information is voluminous and if posted, will be done at a later time.

    Until my testing is duplicated by Roger Caffin in part or in total, all data is just one fallible man's opinion. It is my attempt at trying to understand how different light weight shelter materials test in both their virgin state and after a simulation of real world rain storms, stuffing, and un-stuffing.

    My current preliminary understanding is based on limited data that has not been verified nor exhaustively analyzed:

    -Virgin tests are a reasonable indicator of initial shelter material quality. If you are a recreational user, this information should be adequate to make a buying decision.

    -For expedition users (defined as multi-month) ventures in routinely bad weather, such as coastal Alaska and other long distance trail hiking during the rainy season. (I routinely do these types of trips and this is the primary reason I started looking for answers.) For this class of users, interested in the lightest possible weight achievable through CTF3 variants, it appears that only CT1K.18 and up (defined as .18 Mylar with varying amounts of Spectra) products will maintain the ISO 811 minimum of 1,500 mm H2O after the simulated aging defined in Protocol B.

    -Lighter weight CTF3 materials appear to degrade at a rate similar to silnylon and at a slower rate than PU coated fabrics. Whereas silnylon and PU coated fabrics can be rejuvenated, I am not aware of any well tested method to recover CTF3 HH once lost. This by no means is to say that there are no CTF3 HH recovery options, just none that have been both tested for efficacy and are easily found via Google.

    -Only one silnylon/PU combo product was tested. Its degradation was restricted to a single horizontal thread. If this is not a repeatable phenomenon, this material seems to be superior to PU coated fabrics as it relates to both weight and HH degradation.

    -Last but not least it is interesting to note that I wanted to determine if what I experienced in the real world with my CTF3 tarp's rapid degradation could be simulated. Anyone with a DIY HH tester, as designed by Lance Marshal, a home washing machine, and a small sample of any tent shelter material should be able to not only duplicate my tests but more importantly add to our collective knowledge base.

    -To all those that provided test samples, A BIG THANK YOU. Nothing new would be known without your assistance.

    -To all those who will do their independent testing, also A BIG THANK YOU. I have more questions than I do answers and I eagerly await your discoveries.

    – For supplemental detail regarding how the first aging test was conducted see my latest post in Lance Marshall's thread entitled "DIY HH Tester".

    #1719827
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    The following is a photo set showing the head positioning for the CTF3 (Cuben) tested in the batch 1 first aging test. Augmenting these photos are paper charts showing the general locations of leak areas relative to the tester's head position. The paper charts will be mailed to Roger Caffin along with the batch 1 aging submissions soon since I don’t think there is any benefit from additional batch 1 aging tests. WPB manufacturers such as Patagonia and Gore-Tex normally test their products with 10 -20x the iterations using the same aging procedure. Most of the UL shelter materials can only handle one cycle,at most.

    Submission 11B Test Position 1
    1

    Submission 12B Test Position 1
    1

    Submission 12B Test Position 2
    a

    Submission 13B Test Position 1
    a

    Submission 13B Test Position 2
    1

    Submission 13B Test Position 3
    a

    Submission 13B Test Position 4
    a

    Submission 17B Test Position 1
    a

    Submission 17B Test Position 2
    a

    Submission 17B Test Position 3
    a

    Submission 17B Test Position 4
    a

    Submission 18B Test Position 1
    a

    Submission 18B Test Position 2
    a

    Submission 19B Test Position 1
    a

    Submission 19B Test Position 2
    a

    #1719995
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    We all owe Ken Larson a big thank you for converting a jangle of words into easy to understand chart… thanks Ken.

    hh

    Large Chart Image

    #1720046
    David Chenault
    BPL Member

    @davec

    Locale: Queen City, MT

    And thank you for doing so much work Richard. Very interesting stuff.

    #1720054
    Ben Smith
    BPL Member

    @goosefeet

    Locale: Georgia

    Richard,

    Can we get a link to that picture or the file so that we could see it a little clearer?

    #1720067
    Dan Durston
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    Nice work Richard. Thanks!

    1.26oz cuben (CT3.5K.18) seems like a great material with it's >2000mm HH after the abuse cycle. CT1K.18 which also uses the same thicker mylar layers might be a great material too, but the post-aging results really vary so it's harder to trust the average HH.

    Nothing else tested here really compares to the .18 mylar cubens in terms of post-aging HH. All the sil, PU and urethane coated nylons test far lower post-aging.

    #1720070
    John Nausieda
    BPL Member

    @meander

    Locale: PNW

    Similar request. In either Windows view or Photoshop it is too low rez to read the tables. If someone has a work around please post it.

    #1720091
    Ken Thompson
    BPL Member

    @here

    Locale: Right there

    I'll wait till the smoke clears.

    #1720111
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
    #1720179
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    High Resolution & High Magnification CTF3 Submission Images

    A few people have asked me to provide higher resolution images of Cuben samples that I test. As I have mentioned previously, regardless of the resolution that I post to the forums, my images are reduced to 550 x 413. Occasionally I will supplement the images posted to the forum with my images posted to another site in order to maintain their original resolution.

    This initial high resolution image set is from Dave Olsen's submission 23 virgin sample. It is Breen colored CN2K.08.

    Submission 23's CTF3's (Cuben) surface appears similar to all other CTF3 submissions. To the naked eye or at low magnifications, the Mylar appears smooth. As the magnification increases, the shallow indentations and valleys in the virgin Mylar surface material become easier to see.

    All of the images I post to the external site 1600×1200 resolution with no compression. The magnification ranges are 40x, 100x, and 400x. As you single left click the image its magnification will increase until the screen is completely filled with the image. At this point you will be at that site's maximum resolution of 1520 x 1100 pixels.

    I also encluded high resolution image set for Submission 11B Aged which is CT1K.08. This will give you a general idea of how the Mylar surface degrades with aging for most CTF3 submissions.

    #1720328
    ziff house
    Member

    @mrultralite

    how do i get in touch? are you still taking samples? My email [email protected]

    #1720383
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    c

    Detailed Fabric Description:
    http://www.cubictechnology.com/CTF3%20PRODUCT%20INFO%20PACK%2007192010_4c.pdf

    Supplemental information from Richard Nisley: The sample appeared to have been carefully handled with no visible crinkle marks.

    This submission size is too small to cut into two pieces for an aging sample. The virgin copy will be submitted to Roger Caffin as part of batch 2 but will not be aged by me.

    200X bottom lit micrograph to illustrate weave density voids

    b

    #1720441
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    c

    Detailed Fabric Description:
    http://owareusa.com/fabric.html

    200X bottom lit micrograph to illustrate weave density voids

    2

    #1720475
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    c

    Detailed Fabric Description:
    http://owareusa.com/fabric.html

    200X bottom lit micrograph to illustrate weave density voids

    b

    #1720497
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    c

    Detailed Fabric Description:
    http://owareusa.com/fabric.html

    200X bottom lit micrograph to illustrate weave density voids

    b

    #1720506
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    C

    Detailed Fabric Description:
    http://www.cubictechnology.com/CTF3%20PRODUCT%20INFO%20PACK%2007192010_4c.pdf

    Supplemental information from Richard Nisley:
    There was light crinkling of this sample when received

    200X bottom lit micrograph to illustrate weave density voids

    2

    #1720522
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    c

    Detailed Fabric Description:
    http://www.cubictechnology.com/CTF3%20PRODUCT%20INFO%20PACK%2007192010_4c.pdf

    Supplemental information from Richard Nisley:
    There was light crinkling of this sample when received

    200X bottom lit micrograph to illustrate weave density voids

    2

    #1720570
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    c

    Detailed Fabric Description:
    http://owareusa.com/fabric.html

    200X bottom lit micrograph to illustrate weave density voids

    2

    #1720578
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    c

    Detailed Fabric Description:
    http://owareusa.com/fabric.html

    200X bottom lit micrograph to illustrate weave density voids

    2

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