Stove Question – Winter/Summer

>> would I be better off to get a remote tank stove for all seasons?
>> Or is it stupid to think one stove would work for Summer/Winter conditions in MN?

I dunno how cold it gets in MN in winter, but if you can keep your fuel container warmer than 10F, you could find that a remote (inverted) canister stove would work year round.

An utterly biased opinion: white gas stoves are fast becoming obsolete. Read some of our stove reviews at BPL to find out why.

It might be nice to have a very simple upright for summer time. The Litemax is OK; the GST-100 is better imho. But I am known to be biased.

Cheers.

This is a biased view as most of our camping is via canoe and have a group of 2-4 cooking (not generally FBC) on one stove. The litemax is a nice light stove but I found the fold out Ti pot supports a bit flimsy, especially with larger pans of water. We had some bending over time. The Vargo Jet Ti stove is only marginally heavier and much more sturdy. But…ultimately we went back to the MSR windpro. Lower center of gravity for bigger pots, and ability to invert canister if cold.

I carry my Whisperlite International everywhere. I never regret packing it in anywhere I go. Yeah there are much lighter stoves around but this one has seen alot of use over the years and never let me down. For the guy that thinks liquid fuel stoves are going to be obsolete have you compared the price the price of fuel?

All Season? Well… I totally disagree with Roger about stoves. WG is still going strong, not to worry…Roger and I can agree to disagree to your benefit. You will hear both sides.

First off, I never recommend a canister stove. Indeed, I have used a dozen different ones and have owned half of those: Jetboils to Coleman F1's. Yes, I have tried them.
Four things I do not like about canisters.
1) The fuel density. Between the weight of the can and the weight of the fuel, the overall fuel density is only slightly better than alcohol, using 4oz cans. The picture improves somewhat with 8oz cans and 16oz cans. But never excedes that of WG and a 16floz PET bottle.
(Note that the average weight of 16floz of WG + the bottle is ~12oz total.)
2) The reliability of canisters in cold temps is "iffy". WG will work down to about -50F. For most of the USofA, except maybe the northern parts of Alaska, this is enough.
3) The reliability of the stoves is suspect and depends on the Lindal valves in the canisters.
(About the same as the reliability of a pump if you use a pump powered stove…I have had several lindal valves fail and one MSR pump blow it's guts out.)
4) The cost of canisters is very high. In every case, at least three times the cost of WG, where I live (the US.) Best case is about is about $4 for four ounces. For a gallon, this means about $128. A gallon of WG costs about $9… better than 13x more…

A Whisperlite or equivalent weighs about 16oz. For 3oz more I would recommend the SVEA at 19oz.
I have had one since the early 70's with no problems.
Fuel efficiency is slightly worse than a canister, mostly due to priming. About .25-.33oz per liter if you leave it on low (about 14min/liter) depending on the starting temp of the water.

Compact, it also includes a cup for the weight. Or save 2oz and drop the cup. Anyway, the only downside is the low heat output (part of the reason for the high efficiency.) It is really only good for two, 3 is a bit of a push. 4 is definitly pushing it. Soo, it is a solo or paired camping stove. If you don't need to melt snow for four, it will work. In a real tight pinch, you can burn auto gas in it. Just stay upwind of any fumes.

Rick,

There's no reason that you can't get a stove to work year round in Minnesota. An MSR Simmerlite is a light weight white gasoline stove, and it'll pretty much run in any conditions, hot or cold. It's going to be lighter than your Coleman Exponent Multifuel and easier to pack.

The real question though is do you want to use just one stove? A combination of a light weight gas canister stove for summer and a liquid fueled stove (such as the Simmerlite) for winter is a good way to go.

There's also sort of an "intermediate" stove out there that's "between" (in terms of temperature range) a typical canister stove and a liquid fueled stove: a gas stove that can run with the canister upside down. Such stoves are referred to as "inverted canister stoves." Someone alluded to one previously in this thread: the MSR WindPro. Basically, you hook up the stove, which is a remote set up but uses gas not liquid fuel. Once the stove is up and running, you turn the flame down a bit and invert (turn upside down) the canister. Now the fuel is coming out the bottom of the canister and is coming out as a liquid. The fuel is then vaporized at the stove instead of at the tank and is therefore a lot less temperature dependent.

With an inverted canister stove, you should be able to operate in any positive temperature (Fahrenheit) without too much trouble and probably a bit below zero.

So three options (with petroleum based fuels)
1. Upright canister gas — works well down to freezing and below that with some "tricks"
2. Inverted canister gas — works well down to 0F.
3. Liquid fuel — works down to very, very cold temperatures.

So, which stove? Depends on you and what you're willing to carry and what you're willing to spend. Over time, I have purchased all three types (and some other stuff like alcohol and Esbit), and I take the stove that makes the most sense for the trip I'm taking.

HJ

James,

I think you're calculations are good, but you might be off on one thing. Recall that liquid fuel is sold by volume (fluid ounces) and that canister gas is sold by weight ("regular" ounces). A four ounce canister of gas is actually about eight fluid ounces in volume. Now, how much liquid is actually in a canister of liquefied gas I don't know, but for the sake of argument and ease of computation, let's say that there's a full eight fluid ounces.

Eight fluid ounces per canister means that you would need sixteen four-ounce canisters to get a gallon of liquefied gas. Four ounce canisters where I live cost $5.00 each. Your total (without tax) is $80.00 per gallon. White gasoline costs about $9.00 per gallon. Canister gas in the four ounce containers is therefore about nine times more expensive than liquid fuel.

If you're taking trips where eight ounce canisters (approximately sixteen fluid ounces volume) are used, you would need eight sixteen-ounce canisters. Sixteen ounce canisters where I live cost about $6.00 each. Your total (without tax) is $48.00 per gallon. Again, white gasoline costs about $9.00 per gallon. Canister gas in the eight ounce containers is therefore about five times more expensive than liquid fuel.

Of course upright canister stoves tend to be a lot cheaper than liquid fueled stoves, so you have to burn through quite a bit of gas before a liquid fueled stove works out to be cheaper. People who only take occasional trips and only in fair weather might actually save money by going with gas.

Remote canister/inverted canister stoves tend to run about the same in terms of cost as a liquid fueled stove, so clearly for winter use, liquid fuel will be cheaper.

HJ

"An utterly biased opinion: white gas stoves are fast becoming obsolete. Read some of our stove reviews at BPL to find out why."

That shows why some of us quit reading the BPL stove reviews.

–B.G.–

These are some graphs that I did for an Australian forum http://tasmania.bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2502 , the fuel, the fuel usage figures are from Rogers FAQ site http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Efficiency.htm.The Alcohol stove used was a Trangia 27-1, which is a very common stove over here.

Tony
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I live in minnesota and do a lot of canoe camping. I use a primus omnifuel stove at 15.6oz (with fuelpump) 12oz (without – manufacture specs, so add an oz or so :) and it can burn canister, white gas, even kerosene. Sturdier pot supports than the whisperlite. Great build. Metal pump that is fully field serviceable.

Why not just have it all?

Jay

Yeah, prices vary depending on what you buy. 16oz cannisters generally mean longer trips. I have gotten a gallon of WG for $6 last week. (Scratch and dent sale. The can was dented, but full.)

Yeah, I keep forgetting the weights. Ounces and ounces. 128floz of WG only weighs about 96oz….damnable English measurements, again. Anyway, Like I say between three and what was it?…nine times more expensive.

Hi, Tony,

Those weight comparisons are interesting. The Kovea Supalite was the upright canister stove used, true? A Supalite, at least to me, isn’t a winter capable stove. The original poster was looking for something that would work in all four seasons.

I wrote up a comparison that I think might be more applicable comparison for stoves for year round use. I compared the MSR Simmerlite (liquid fuel) to the MSR Windpro (inverted canister capable), both of which have good cold weather capabilities. I think a comparison between the two is a bit more of an “apples to apples” comparison.

HJ

We seem to be fussing a huge amount about the cost of a canister of fuel.
How much do you spend on gas for the car getting to the trailhead?
Perspective …

Cheers

First, if a stove will work in winter conditions, it'll work in summer conditions. The inverse is not necessarily true.

I would consider two stoves: EDIT: a Trail Designs Ti Tri Inferno or Caldera Cone is my preference for warmer weather. If you want a cansiter stove, perhaps a Snowpeak Gigapower Manual (GS-100) or Litemax (GST-120) for summer. For winter, a MSR Simmerlite.

White gas stoves are in no way becoming obsolete, particularly for those of us who spend time at 0*F/-18*C and lower. As it turns out, two nearly identical stoves (the Simmerlite & canister version, the Windpro) weigh almost exactly the same when accounting for fuel container… Although I have more testing to conduct, I've also found that the WG version can boil a liter at least 1.5 minutes faster, despite all conditions, down to the pot, being completely normalized, & valve flow optimized, canister inverted, same windscreen & diameter applied, etc. (This in temps around 20*F/-7*F) Like I said, more testing necessary to nail this down as fact, not a sometimes occurrence; results will be forthcoming.

Northern Minnesota is known for temperatures bottoming out around -40*F/C (even down to -60*F/-51*C!) in winter. Winter temps can easily average in the neighborhood of ~ 5*F/-15*C to 20*F/-7*C. Frankly, inverted canisters are not optimal (or even functional sometimes) at these temperatures.

Ahhhhh – the perinial WG vs canister vs alcohol debate

White gas stove are obsolete for me – I'm tired of singeing my eyebrows, the stove plugs up so you have to take it apart and get it to work, occasionally the fuel gets on my hands or gear and it really stinks

MSR simmerlite plus fuel bottle weighs 14 ounces

cannister stove plus empty 8 ounce canister weighs 8 ounces – so it's lighter

white gas and isobutane have the same fuel density – weight ounces of fuel to boil given quantity of water

isobutane costs more, maybe $5.00 for 8 ounces which is good for 7 days for me – $0.75 per day is not a major percentage of my total cost

canister works fine down to 32F although it slows down. You can put it in a container of water or use other tricks to use it below 32 F.

Roger Caffin wrote: > We seem to be fussing a huge amount about the cost of a canister of fuel.
How much do you spend on gas for the car getting to the trailhead?

Interesting question. Now, you've made me curious, so let's do the math.

For this past weekend's trip, I drove 180 miles round trip. My car gets about 28 miles per gallon of gasoline. I therefore used roughly 5.7 gallons of gasoline on my drive. Gasoline costs $3.84 per gallon. I therefore spent $21.89 on gasoline.

I melted snow and cooked hot meals. I used one 110g canister of Snow Peak isobutane-propane. There's a bit left in the canister (10g – 15g), but for the sake of argument, let's say I used an entire canister. I certainly had to buy a whole canister. A 110g canister costs $4.99 plus 9.75% tax or $5.48.

With isobutane-propane gas, my total fuel cost for the weekend was therefore $27.37 of which 20% was cooking fuel cost.

If I had used the equivalent amount of white gasoline (about 8 fluid ounces assuming an isobutane-propane canister if filled at the factory to its full liquid capacity), my cost would be $0.61 (128 fluid ounces of Coleman fuel is $8.88 and there is a 9.75% tax).

With white gasoline, my total fuel cost for the weekend would have been $22.58 of which 3% would be cooking fuel cost, and I would save $4.79 for that trip.

Probably not earth shattering numbers, but you got me curious. For those who take more frequent trips or who do a lot of cooking, perhaps fuel cost is salient.

Of course, white gasoline usage would probably be a bit higher than gas. My own experience indicates about a 5 to 10% increase due to the necessity of priming and also the little bit of fuel that is wasted in the fuel line on disconnection. I know others have posted about a 30% increase in white gasoline usage over gas. Obviously cooking style will affect one's numbers greatly.

HJ

>> Now, how much liquid is actually in a canister of liquefied gas I don't know, but for the sake of argument and ease of computation, let's say that there's a full eight fluid ounces.

Jim, you can't base an argument on assumptions like that.
First, the heat of combustion (LHV) by weight of gas and gasoline/white gas are very similar, and a US gallon of gasoline weighs 6lb, so 6lb of gas will produce (almost) the same amount of heat as a gallon of gasoline.
Now compare the cost of 12 x 8oz canisters with how many gallons does a SUV need to get you to the trailhead???

Edited to add:
>>> Gasoline costs $3.84 per gallon
@~$%??"^ you guys must be on another planet!!!

Gasoline costs $3.84 per gallon

The good old days.

Paid $4.45 today. I get 18 mpg

I'll stick with a canister stove. But the Optimus 99 white gas stove is always ready to go.

Canisters are just so convenient. And I just want to eat.

gas costs 1.059/L up here. and we make the stuff for you guys.

canisters are easy. as is wood stoves, solid fuel and alcohol for 3 season use(wood works for 4 season). these price complaints on canisters/white gas are really pointless. its a consumable. just like a powerbar, oatmeal, pristine or anything else that is used to go some where in the back country.

Try to use your white gas stove hanging in belays. white gas priming plus hanging=melted gear.Jet boils and canisters work the best in that aplication.

I guess there are nearly as many opinions as people who have responded. Here is one more. I started out decades ago with a Bluet Butane stove. When I moved to Alaska I found it didn't work at all in the winter and I switched to the old Optimist 8R which is a classic. I later was given an MSR International Whisper Lite and I used it climbing at various altitudes and temperatures and it is truly a workhorse that never fails and if it does it is made to be easy to repair in the field. However, at nearly a pound I wanted something lighter. I now use a Primus Micron Canister(actually a similar earlier model)stove and I have found it isn't 100% reliable in very cold conditions (well below freezing). It doesn't produce as hot of a flame, and it takes longer to melt snow which can be an issue. Nevertheless, I love it. It is relatively safe to cook inside the tent in a storm. It is clean. If (big if) I can keep the canister above freezing it does work okay, but I keep an extra canister warm in my pocket to change out as needed. So, my opinion is that it depends on what floats your boat.
Workhorse high heat output: MSR Whisperlite or other gasoline fired stove.
Convenience at mid weight: Primus Micron or similar canister stove.
Light Weight but slower cooking time and less convenience: DIY Alcohol Stove.
And, if you enjoy waiting for your dinner, and waiting and waiting: Esbit stove.

Gasoline costs $3.84 per gallon

The good old days.

Paid $4.45 today. I get 18 mpg

Well, all I know is that on Saturday I paid $3.84 in Redlands, CA for 87 octane unleaded gasoline. :)

HJ

>> Now, how much liquid is actually in a canister of liquefied gas I don't know, but for the sake of argument and ease of computation, let's say that there's a full eight fluid ounces.

Jim, you can't base an argument on assumptions like that.
First, the heat of combustion (LHV) by weight of gas and gasoline/white gas are very similar, and a US gallon of gasoline weighs 6lb, so 6lb of gas will produce (almost) the same amount of heat as a gallon of gasoline.
Now compare the cost of 12 x 8oz canisters with how many gallons

Stuart,

I think what you're saying is that weight is the more valid comparison as opposed to volume and that the valid comparison is twelve 8oz gas canisters to 1 US gallon of white gasoline (not sixteen). I was using volumes since I know the volume of a canister of gas is roughly double it's weight. Sometime I'll have to weigh some Coleman fuel and see what the weight comes in as. If indeed twelve eight ounce canisters to one gallon of white gasoline is the valid comparison, then the cost savings would be somewhat reduced.

Not a big deal since it was an exercise borne of curiosity not of necessity. I think most people choose based on the type of trip, their cooking style, and their personal preferences not on the cost of their cooking fuel.

how many gallons does a SUV need to get you to the trailhead???

So, stop driving an SUV already. ;)

HJ

In order to beat the auto gasoline cost, I do two things. First, I try to load the auto with as many backpackers as possible, and we share expenses. That reduces my auto gasoline cost to a fraction.

Secondly, by a bunch of backpackers traveling together, we can get the economies of scale from a white gas stove. That means that we have minimized priming losses and some other factors from a central commissary. That ends up beating the stove fuel cost significantly.

If I do a solo trip, then the whole equation changes, and I am back to alcohol or butane blend. Possibly Esbit, but there is a different set of tricks there.

–B.G.–

One last comment on gas vs. gasoline cost and then I'll stop the thread hijack and get back to what the OP was interested in: a stove that would work all year.

A gallon of white gasoline costs $9.75 here where I live (tax included). A gallon of gasoline weighs 6.175 lbs or 2800g. Therefore, the cost per gram is $0.0035 (about 1/3 of a cent). Four ounces by weight (113g) costs $0.39 versus $5.49 (tax included) for gas. Gas is about fourteen times more expensive than white gasoline if bought in four ounce canisters. Eight ounces by weight (227g) costs $0.79 versus $6.59 (tax included) for gas. Gas is about eight times more expensive than white gasoline if bought in eight ounce canisters.

Fuel cost isn't everything. I hike to enjoy it. Still, it's interesting to me to have the data and if relevant, take it into account.

HJ