Rainwear for dangerous rain…

[a b]

Personally I have a problem with regulating sweat while hiking in rain. I admit i have never tried E-vent. I just have a hard time justifying spending hundreds of dollars on another rain shell only to find out it becomes a sweat factory inside. Both my rain shells had pit zips but the problem was heat build-up under the shoulders. With the pack over the jacket, no amount of ventilation prevented my back and shoulders from wetting out due to sweat and condensation from the inside.
Maybe I could slow down but that just goes against my hiking style. (read: I am a lazy b^stard that does not make a lot of clothing adjustments on the fly)
I am not saying a jacket would not be the right choice for anyone else.
I just know I was dissapointed with the performance of mine, particularly the gap between me and my pack.
Anyways I have taken my simple Outdoor Products back-packer poncho and am modifying it to give it better wind worthyness when neccesary with velcro tabs and yet be able to be left open in the traditions style for max ventialtion.
For the obvious weakness of arm protection i might use a couple of simple tyvek sleeves or go to the extent that Roger's poncho does and have dedicated sleeves.. thats next.
Right now I have simply configured velcro tabs that allow my to shape the poncho around my pack and be clasped like a belt in front. I have also made similar attachments for the front half to wrap around and clasp in the back. I am in the process of hemming the shoulders to eliminate loose material there and i will make a mod to the hood so the chest can be opened up for ventilation.
Basically I am really crappy at following directions so I am only using Roger's design as a rough guide.
Fortunately it's raining here for the next couple of days and i have access to the hills so i can test out my design.
But just to reassure you Brian my jackets were adequate to keep me warm and dry for enough time to be mostly quite comfortable on the CDT. I only had a few occasions when I got really chilled. Basically after something happens on the trail I can't get it out of my head and i go a little nuts trying to solve that problem so the "pendulum" swings way over the other side.
I may yet end up with an E-vent Jacket or even a Packa poncho.
@ Jack My poncho started out at 11 ounces but I am removing material as we speak but also adding fasteners. I know i could use a lighter material like sil-nylon(in fact i have one i made and tested last year), and I have some, but I like the stiffer less flappy urethane nylon at this point.
Suffice it to say; the gear manufacturers have nothing to fear from my feeble sewing and gear construction skills!

[BlackHatGuy]

the eVent one. If I can remember, and if you're interested, I'll pack it in to Coe so you can have a look.

[Steven McAllister]

What is under your outer shell really matters in near freezing rain.
Breathable or non-breathable shell, you will still get soaked from condensation when it is near freezing.

I did a short hike last weekend in near freezing rain. I wore a cape/poncho over a windhsirt and nylon hiking pants, over a combination of very breathable light synthetics and a merino wool base layer.

My clothing were wet more from condensation than splash, but I never really felt clammy.
Since the clothing I wore won't absorb much water, they still insulated well and I was warm.

[Jack H.]

Yeah, that'd be awesome Doug. I've never seen one.

[a b]

Hey, when is this Henry Coe thingy?
Thanks Ken!
I am SO there! I can't wait to hang out with a bunch of hiker trash again!

[Ken Thompson]

PM sent 2/25-27 2011

[Daryl and Daryl]

The photos Roger posted pretty well show what I consider the hardest weather to stay warm in……a mix of rain and snow (and possibly wind) at about 32F.

If I know this is what I'm going into I'll wear a float coat. This is one of these closed cell foam coats that boaters wear. In fact I'm wearing one right now because I have been working out in the yard in heavy rain. They weigh about 2 lbs but take the place of an insulated jacket and a raincoat.

[Stephen Bodiya]

Logan

I'm not sure if there is much bushwacking in a typical year. We were hiking Spring 2009 after Northern Minnesota was hit by what may have been the worst ice storm in a century? Something like an inch+ ice followed by 6-12 inches of snow. It literally tore down half the forest it seemed.

If we had started a week later (May 7ish instead of April 30) most of the entire trail would have been clean. But this depends a lot on the year. We passed the trail crews several times, but unfortunately they can't clear a trail as fast a one hikes :(

It took us just about two weeks. We hiked from 301 to Arrowhead. I was unable to chat with the shuttle beforehand since they were still closed so we couldn't go all the way to Otter Lake road. The road condition that far North also comes into play. I heard it may have been tough to get to Otter Lake anyhow that year.

We arrived at 301 late April 30th and started hiking May 1. We finished on May 15 but only had a mile to hike that day. We took a halfish day resupply in Tofte and a zero day for fun on the Lake Walk. Doing it again I would take 2 resupplies probably or figure out mailing food through the shuttle. Depending on trail conditions it is likely much easier to complete it in less days too.

-Steve

[Roger Caffin]

> What is under your outer shell really matters in near freezing rain.
> Breathable or non-breathable shell, you will still get soaked from condensation when it is near freezing.

This is a very good point. Your body IS giving off water vapour, and whatever you are wearing on the outside will be very cold. Condensation WILL happen under these conditions. Accept it and move on.

However, very often I am wearing my poncho without using the sleeves. It acts like an umbrella and windshirt when I do this. The rain is deflected so I am not continuously chilled by it, but not very much of my clothing is in contact with the poncho. Also – and this may surprise some, when I do up the poncho down the front I can get quite a warm fug going inside. Certainly my back and sides stay warm enough that way.

CAUTION! If you do up a narrow poncho like mine with your arms inside the body part, you will have a big problem if you fall over! You may not be able to get your arms out fast enough. That's why I only do up bits of the narrow velcro tape down the front: I can burst out of the narrow velcro fairly easily. If things get tricky I thread my arms back into the sleeves for a while.

Trousers.
Yes indeed, you will need some over-trousers. We were wearing GoLite Whims on our legs. They lets a bit of damp through, but the heat of our leg muscles prevented too much water from coming through.

Cheers

[Logan Spader]

JACK – A fleece!? So you hike in a micropile baselayer with a 100wt fleece and a rainjacket!? Don't you overheat like mad? This is interesting because I was not planning on bringing a fleece. I was only going to have a rain jacket, hooded baselayer, rain pants, and baselayer pants for hiking. Plus I would bring a pair of nylon pants for warmer weather and my "never get wet" clothes which are a lightweight baselayer set and a synthetic fill jacket.

–
I have too many options.

I still like the idea of an umbrella and a hoodless rain jacket. Body heat/moisture could rise up through the collar and an umbrella would stop loads of rain/sleet (and keep rain from getting between my pack and I).

The eVent Packa sounds like the most comfortable choice but I can't spend $185 on a rain jacket that weighs over a pound.

I am so familiar with the traditional rain jacket/pants. I know my back will get very wet and now I have to consider an extra fleece with this setup.

This also has me second guessing my footwear now. I was going to bring mesh trail running shoes but if it is sleeting all day my toes would be screwed.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Well, you can get an eVent Packa (pack cover part made of coated nylon) if you like red, his only eVent color. Around $190.

The Packa is the most intelligent solution to walking with a pack in teh rain that I've come across.

If you don't want to pay for eVent get the standard coated nylon packa that comes W/ pit zips.

[Jack H.]

When I'm wearing a fleece, I'm more concerned with hypothermia than overheating.

Too many options? Tell me about it! Clothing is super personal, and with all gear, nothing is perfect.

[BlackHatGuy]

FWIW, eVent Packa comes with pit zips as well.

[Steven McAllister]

If you think breath-ability is important, no jacket breaths better than a poncho. As much as waterproof breathable fabrics breath, a poncho made out of non-breathable material will breath better than a closed jacket.

Breathable material doesn't help if the membrane is wet on both sided from rain and condensation. Better to let air flow in and water drain out.

[Jerry Adams]

It seems like for a WPB fabric to work, you have to have a temperature gradient – warm body to cold outside fabric

With Packa, the fabric is on the top side of the pack. That fabric will not breath because there's no temperature gradient.

The only direct experience I've had is when I used conventional WPB jacket and draped it over my pack, "Packa" style, then it got wet on both sides of the WPB fabric.

[Chris Townsend]

To back up Miguel, Paramo clothing works really well in wet cold conditions. I've worn Paramo in heavy rain, sleet and wet snow in temperatures around freezing many, many times, sometimes all day, and it has kept me warm and dry. The only problem with Paramo is that in temperatures above around 50F it's too warm, at least for me.

[BlackHatGuy]

The pack cover portion of the eVent Packa is sil, not eVent, FWIW.

[BlackHatGuy]

Hey Chris,

What do you wear under the Paramo top, if anything, on colder wetter days?

[obx hiker]

I've had good luck with underarmour cold gear or nike drifit in cold wet 32 degree +- conditions. I cut the long legs off around the knees ( doesn't sag or ride up) and the sleeves @3/4 or a long half and shave a little weight plus the stuff is warm! Maybe a 100 wt fleece zip-neck or vest ( got an old 100 wt pullover,,,cut-off the arms!) or something merino over the compression top and whatever pants you'll have anyway. You might have to pull off the fleece or merino at 40. Do some experimenting. At least this stuff is widely available and not too expensive.

I'm a believer in comfort through the modified "wetsuit" approach in these conditions. The compression stuff has a flat hard but extremely porous outer face that seems to do well at letting vapor out but keeping moisture from getting to the skin and a soft next to skin fuzzy side that in concert are designed to vent/wick like heck and any moisture left behind stays reasonable warmed right next to the skin and you don't FEEL wet. The outer layer of light fleece merino keeps things warm and blocks that chilling "feedback" of moisture condensed on the inner shell of the rainsuit rubbing off on the skin.

I've never seen anything that would vent enough to stop major condensation in humid conditions. Course in the high desert seems like it's hard to stay wet but I take it this is Lake Superior we're talking here so the air will be wringing wet.

[Chris Townsend]

Hi Douglas, I've worn various base layers under Paramo over the yeas (I've been using it for two decades) but have settled on lightweight merino wool. The temperature has to be well below freezing before I wear anything else as Paramo is quite warm. Of course then rain isn't a problem.

[BlackHatGuy]

"I've worn various base layers under Paramo over the years (I've been using it for two decades) but have settled on lightweight merino wool."

Thanks much! I have the Velez Lite Adventure Smock that I've been dying to try out.

[Steven McAllister]

Yes, it sounds like Paramo rocks for wet environments.
Too bad it's out of my price range:-(

[Lynn Tramper]

Agreed, Paramo type fabric is great for below freezing, or around freezing if you're not moving around too much. But too warm otherwise for me. I love it for snow boarding or short wet cold bike trips around town. I also like The Packa for biking around town especially when i want to keep my day pack and back side dry too, but find it too clammy for anything more strenuous. I also had problems (no one else I have heard of yet complain) with rain blowing in the front and pit zips of The Packa. Umbrellas are fine as long as the wind doesn't blow too much, which is almost never where I hike. Both The Packa and the Paramo also take up a lot more room in my pack than a traditional WPB jacket. YMMV. BTW, I am referring to the silnylon Packa. Haven't tried the eVent version, though it seems to have the same unprotected zippers, but at least you could "wear" it dry.

[Chris Townsend]

Yes, I don't use Paramo if I think I might have to carry it, only trips where I'm going to wear it all day. For trips with a wide range of temperatures I've found eVent the best fabric. On the Pacific Northwest Trail last summer I took a Rab Demand Pull-On and wore it for much of September, when it rained almost every day, including three days of around freezing conditions when the precipitation was as much sleet and wet snow as rain. It performed okay and kept me dry enough to stay comfortable and safe. It didn't leak but there was some condensation inside after long strenuous ascents.

[Brian Lewis]

Thanks for you trail-specific feedback, Matt & Jack. I wore my new OR Helium Rain Jacket (200g, 7.1 oz in size large) into the shower this afternoon, stood with the water spraying pretty hard, and gained some confidence from that.

Yes, the DWR is new, yes I wasn't under driving rain for an extended period, but as everyone knows, at some point it's not about "staying dry" so much as about temperature control. I'm more confident again now that I can keep my core at an adequate temp with this as the shell part of the solution (I have to admit that I don't get the whole fleece thing either, FWIW … maybe it's a personal metabolism thing).

I reckon I might have some revivex or nikwax mailed to/from the trail a couple of times along the way to revive the DWR; that might help for a while, at any rate. If I find that my shell just isn't cutting it in the short term I'll make myself a rain smock out of a yard waste bag, and in the long term do a mail swap for my Packa.

In total, I'm saving something like 10 oz with this approach, given that with the Packa I'd be inclined to carry a windshirt, and with the OR Helium jacket not so much.

Even though I'm inclining away from your advice here, please understand that I seriously considered it, and very much appreciate you offering it.

[Author]

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