“Mirror mirror on the wall, who’s the lightest of them all?”

"Go out. Be light. But don't be blinded by gear."

I'm completely in agreement with the spirit of both of these posts. Even though I've been guilty to some degree myself.

Just like I said on a recent post in a bushcraft forum where I was given a hard time for offering advice on how to lighten the load of someone who didn't want to lighten it, for fair reasons. For me, it's in my nature to always want to lighten something if I can retain it's functionality. However, I vehemently disagree with trying to talk people out of pieces of kit that are intrinsically tied to their *fun* in the backwood.

The whole thing stemmed from a post where everyone tried to convince this guy in the Gear List section to ditch his Axe from his list. It's so hard for us to not look at everything from a "do you need" this item, when it doesn't seem to line up with the status quo that's seem to develop around UL necessities. This guy is a bushcrafter, who was honestly trying to figure out how to lighten his load, yet most of us couldn't seem to figure out that his Axe was essential to his core experience in the wild.

I still find it ironic, that people will argue to death the usefulness of a small Axe, which could eliminate your fuel weight completely if you knew what you were doing, add fun, and purify your water, yet will carry 1lb of water filters and extra containers, etc. People will learn to sleep under a tiny tarp in a bivy, but will carry full on rain suits that may not see trail use on 90% of their trips, that weight more than their tarp and bivy combined, and still end up soaked.

I'm pretty sure my 3-season base weight has broken the sub-5lb mark, although I don't keep a running tally. I'm obsessed with refining my gear where I can, but it's not based on an arbitrary goal, just over all "better".

The major exception here is I find myself taking bigger knives with me, because I"m getting more into the BC, firebuilding, survivalist aspect of the ride. First I started taking my 23oz 16.5" Himalayan Imports AK, now I've got two wonderful options, a custom 13" chopper that's only 7.5oz, and a 17" Himalayan Imports BAS by the Royal Kami Bura. So in this regard, I'm still refining, but I've added weight that I won't be giving up anytime soon, because it's essential to what makes getting out-there *fun*.

I've also completely changed my baseweight goals depending on the type of trip I"m doing. I'm not trying to push it absolutely as light as possible for all trips, because there's no fun in that anymore. Yes, I'll likely plan a few SUL trips to see absolutely how light I can go, but I'm also going with some 10lb bases for winter trips, not because I have to, but because it'll be more interesting.

Anyway, just a ramble, but yes, from someone who makes gear for the gear-obsessed full time now. We are too obsessed with gear. It's an addiction honestly, and I think we should start analyzing our goals a bit more.

these days whenever i think extra or heavier gear … i ask myself, will it keep me alive any longer than a 2-3 days worth of fuel,an extra 1-2 cams, or my MBL exl …. because thats what those few extra oz will cost me …

frequently the answer is no …

i used to believe that you needed bomber gear all the time … in some cases you still want it … in others, not needed … esepcially when you consider the tradeoffs

put it this way … moving from my old dead bird wpb to the OR revel has saved me 8 oz … or 2-3 days worth of fuel with little loss of functionality …. using my OR helium saves me 16 oz which is fine for most short term uses, and thats 4-6 days worth of fuel, or 4 cams, or a whole rack of nuts, or a ton of spectra slings, or a blizzard survival bag …. all of which will keep me alive much better than a "bomber" dead bird jacket

similar situations with a lot of gear, where for the intended usage, there's minimal functionality loss with something lighter thats sometimes also cheaper … though not as yuppie ;)

some items you "need", others you dont … somethings need to be "bomber", others dont … then there are the ton of useless features that no one really uses like MS bloatware, but because some may like it occasionally, the manuf feel they have no choice to add them … especially since quite a few people think the more features, the better it is

the trick is in finding out, hopefully not the hardway, what matters

oh and loose that belly weight too ;)

And that goes for any subject.

I hike for enjoyment and a certain amount of physical pain/suffering is part of my sick twisted method of enjoying the experience. But…. I've been miserable, cold wet and exhausted in ways that I don't ever desire to repeat.

For me… I hike with what makes me enjoy the experience. I look for gear that will enable that…. period. My pack weight at the end of the day is just a number on a scale.

It is obvious that there is often evangelical zeal to be UL or SUL here on BPL. Sometimes it gets down to "the right way" only. Often members will post questions, seeking help or input, and they are belittled for not conforming to a certain mantra, and sometimes a lot of useful options are discussed.

I work for a consulting company. We help businesses to improve their profit, grow their business, and make their customers completely satisfied. Sometimes our entry point is to focus on a small target area of the business, or to deliver a large comprehensive solution for the entire business operation. The goal for us is to deliver the solutions that results in the client's desired outcome. So here is how we go about it ("Cliff's Notes version").

1. What does the client seek or want. (GOAL)

2. What is the current state. (What works, what is in place, what is not working well)

3. Are there other opportunities for improvement the client has not identified.

4. What high level attributes should be in place after we are finished.

5. Can we finish the project with a method for the client to sustain the changes and enable them to go down a path of continuous improvement.

6. When we are working as change agents, we want to determine the key attribute needed within the organization's technology, facility, people and culture. That is, how do we develop effective solutions that are aligned to industry best practices, and are also customized to the needs of the business.

7. The solutions for two very similar organizations may look very different, but the key attributes are in place at both of them.

This approach works for backpacking too.

1. What is the backpacker's goal (this REALLY varies among people).

2. What gear is currently in use, and does it meet the goals.

3. What skills are in place, and do other skills need to be acquired.

4. What other gear options are available to the backpacker, based on goals, budget and desires.

5. Do the options make sense to the backpacker.

In the US, Colin Fletcher started the "backpacking revolution" more than 40 years ago. Most people consider him a traditional backpacker. But read his books carefully. He was a gear junkie, and was obsessed with weight, given the equipment and material available at the time. He often probably carried more back-up equipment than many of us here on BPL.

Fletcher popularized the postal scale, and the idea that parring ounces would save pounds. He presents the cliche methods such as, trimming map margins, cut off tooth brush handles, use trash bags for rain gear (e.g. Colin's Kilt), etc. Each edition of his Complete Walker reviewed the new and lighter options. His last edition (co-written by Chip Rawlins) in 2002 even had references to (gasp!) Ray Jardine and Dan McHale, which are two different approaches.

So, set your OWN backpacking GOALS, review your skills and physical conditioning, determine the best gear that meets these goals, your level of safety or risk avoidance, and your budget. If you are a person seeking continuous improvement, consider the alternative equipment and views of those who have good experiences to share.

If your main goal is to go the absolutely lightest way possible, that is okay, but do not force it on others. Playing the gram weenie game is okay, it allows one to test the waters of gear options, and then adjust up or down as needed by YOU.

There is no "right way" to do it, other than coming back home safe and alive.

Thanks for the links, Eugene. A timely reminder, and I agree with all the sentiments posted here. In the end it's all about the experience. But for the sake of discussion, competitiveness is a good thing in sports, as long as good sportsmanship is observed. It drives both personal achievement and industry. Seeing others carrying a sub-5 pack and hiking insane distances altered my perception of what was possible in backpacking, much for the better. And when it is time to replace older gear, I am extremely thankful for the experiences of others (all that gear talk)that have allowed me to buy once and buy well. I'm also grateful that UL fanaticism has allowed the industry to support people like Javan, Ron Bell, and others whose gear enhances my personal experience. The lunatic fringe is what ultimately brings innovations in design and technology to the mainstream (or near enough to it that we benefit). So all the gear talk and gram-weenieness serves a purpose.

For what it's worth though, my favorite part of BPl is the trip reports.

I really thought this thread was going to be asking about the lightest mirror for trail use….

Anyway, I'm a tinkerer. I try to "improve" almost everything I own and this certainly translates over to gear. I love meticulously putting a list together for the absolute worst conditions I expect on a trip and making/watching it all work together as the trip unfolds.

Therefore seeing the most amazing places all while satisfying my need to "fix" things is simply a win/win situation. I can see how some really prefer one over the other but to me it's about satisfying two of my inner cravings at the same time.

This has been on my mind since reading both of these posts earlier. I think the fact that they have been on my mind is slight testament to my own slight tendency towards a 'gear-centric' mindset on occasion, that shifting focus and occasional obsessiveness with tinkering, tailoring, perfecting, altering, talking, swapping, and acquiring gear. Why? For what?

What is undeniable is that the majority of this website is about gear, without the gear BPL and what it promotes would be null. What delineates an ultralight hiker from a traditional hiker? Gear…right? It's nearly impossible to not discuss gear to some degree (judging by the # of posts under the GEAR thread…to a very large degree) because it's the medium that facilitates our every outing, it's essential, a tool, for some more than others. I'll put my foot in my mouth and stand by my opinion that ultralight backpackers are far more concerned with gear than the many out there wearing heavier packs putting down miles not on this forum, the individuals discussing sore feet, summits, sunsets, and icy river crossings.

What I think Dave and Hendrik nailed or is at least suggesting is that the focus of attention can sometimes lean unbalanced towards the tangible side of things, the cuben, titanium, skin-out-weights, ounces and grams, and perhaps we/some/you/I/they could be greater invested in the intangible experience(s) in and of the outdoors.

I can't say I really feel that I belong here, or the UL community at large. I'm not a competitor, adventure racer, or runner (let alone trail runner!). I'm not much of a competitor in anything. The only climbing I've ever done has been on an indoor wall. I'm not a thru-hiker and it's exceedingly unlikely I'll ever be in a situation where I'll be able to thru-hike anything but the SHT. I'm just a fat computer nerd who is quite happy to have hiking and backpacking be a part of who he is, and I take almost every opportunity I get to get outside and enjoy the activity with my family and friends.

We do all share two things: the philosophy of lightweight backpacking and the gear that enables it. With a lighter load, we can walk farther, see more, and arrive at camp more comfortable than we may have been otherwise. At the end of the day, the philosophy and the gear are the common denominators.

1. I think I'm old school. To me, backpacking isn't a sport- it's a hobby and a pastime. I've always found adventure racing and backpacking-as-extreme-sport to be contrived and silly. No disrespect, it's just never clicked with me. It seems to me that it's been becoming a larger part of the backpacking world, especially lightweight backpacking.

My own personal (mostly pre-BPL) experience has been that enjoyment of the outdoors is less a part of that world than it is a part of hiking as I've known it. As such, it seems logical that gear would be a more significant focus than it might otherwise be.

2. I enjoy talking about the more personal (or "spiritual") side of my trips with my friends. In an online community such as BPL, the main reason I'm here is to discuss gear or to get trail news, ideas on new loops, etc but that's about it. It's too hard to explain enough background and context about me, my experiences, the area, etc for my trip impressions to make much sense, so talking about gear becomes paramount in this kind of forum.

Never cared about 'keeping up with the Joneses' — or in this case, keeping 'down' with the Joneses…

I shed pack weight so I can enjoy my hikes more.

I've always seen the SUL side of things as a puzzle game, trying to work out the lightest possible kit. I enjoy the game, and I like the independence and confidence in the ability to survive on my own in the wilderness with a small bag of gear. Some cross the line like fanatics of any kind and try to turn it into some sort of moral imperative. There is a difference between "must" and "want." If you can make it through the night on a 1/8" sleeping pad and a 40F quilt, go for it, but don't tell me that I *must* do the same.

I personally got to a point where my kit was light enough and I was happy with that— a 14 pound base weight for honest 3-season use. I can squeeze it down to 8 pounds for "height of summer" trips– if I want to.

Most of my trips are simple overnighters and I'm not out to set any speed/distance records. I like quiet simple trips, the, sunshine, the wind in my face, the wildlife, the stars, the views, the peace. It all comes down to what floats your boat.

There are lots of different material freaks– cars, photo gear, electronics, firearms, knives, musical instruments, antiques — you name it. I figured out late in life that much of my fascination with such things was an appreciation of industrial design, and if I have a missed calling, that is it. I enjoy the play of form and function, the beauty of good design, the clever use of materials.

Nick, one of the best, most informative, and useful (in AND out of the backpacking world) posts I have read in a while. That's just textbook, chunky, good knowledge. Really like how you applied what you do with packing. Thanks for taking the time to put that down.

Aaron…I'm with you in the sense that I just enjoy backpacking. I was raised to enjoy it, not defeat it. I've never felt much competition in backpacking…just companionship and excitement and a sense of experiencing something much bigger than myself.

And when Ike wrote that he gets competitive seeing a certain thing (piece of gear, etc.) I think what I see instead is inspiration, not competition. I might be inspired to go lighter, or to switch things up, but it's not fueled from competition. But, that's just me, and everyone hikes for their own reasons and is fueled by different things. I ran competitive track and field in high school and college. If you told me I could not achieve something, you just made sure I would achieve it. Yet, that type of motivational tool might be lost on my teammate.

ANyways, I have really enjoyed this site, and the different perspectives everyone offers. Can't say I agree with everyone, or disagree, but I will say I've been inspired. :)

"I've always seen the SUL side of things as a puzzle game, trying to work out the lightest possible kit. I enjoy the game, and I like the independence and confidence in the ability to survive on my own in the wilderness with a small bag of gear."

Exactly what I was trying to say when I said "tinkering."

I take as much pleasure in the size of my kit and having the fewest number of components as a I do the weight.

However, my inner gram weenie was being strangled by my inner tightwad before my recent trip to the desert. I had reached a point where my base weight hovered in the 7-10 pound range depending on the trip and those last couple of pounds just weren't that important. But when you have to carry 2 days worth of water (and are ready to go back and would do it again RIGHT NOW if you could) you start to really question everything else you're carrying. In that regard I wouldn't call it a "game" in the half hearted sense – it's a serious game where you die if you screw up badly enough.

Of course on those trips where the weight of consumables isn't much of an issue there comes a point where, despite my love of tinkering, it's really just bragging rights.

"it's a serious game where you die if you screw up badly enough"

heheh—yeah, I try to avoid that dieing part ;)

That is one point where I diverge from many SUL gear lists. I have a bigger first aid kit, a "real" knife, multiple fire-starters, navigation gear, etc. In my neck of the woods, the problem is too much water!

"heheh—yeah, I try to avoid that dieing part ;)

That is one point where I diverge from many SUL gear lists. I have a bigger first aid kit, a "real" knife, multiple fire-starters, navigation gear, etc. In my neck of the woods, the problem is too much water!"

So far so good on not dieing here! :)

I tend to agree with you but I guess they aren't baseweight since they're on my person and not in my pack. ;)

I too like a more functional knife than what I think most here carry, I keep a backup source of fire handy, and if I were going into an area where I couldn't "just follow that ridge to safety" I'd bring a serious compass and keep it and the maps on me. In contrast to what you carry, and since I grew up in the sticks and never had much of a first aid kit around, I don't carry anything but what can't be easily improvised in my first aid kit. Although growing up in the sticks is probably why I value my knife so highly too.

Aaron,

Good comments.

In a sense I think we are all competitors. Hopefully not against each, but against ourselves. The first level is to be safe; that is to use our wits "to command nature."

Your comment, "With a lighter load, we can walk farther, see more, and arrive at camp more comfortable than we may have been otherwise" is a good example. Each of us sets our own goals, and usually we try to attain them. Maybe it is to come back to that switch-back trail next week and see if we can make it to the top with fewer stops; or to do a few more miles to reach that special spot we want to visit; or just to hike a few miles one weekend a month and spend most of that weekend in a secluded campsite. Each of us has our own unique reason to hike, and most of us share a desire to get lighter whenever possible or practical. But the goal should not be to have the lightest gear list of all. It should be to fulfill our own personal purpose, irrespective of those we share our hobby/sport/passion with. There is nothing wrong at all with those who want to set a time record, a distance record, or to be the first person to walk a walk. We are all different. But to just hike for two weeks each summer at a leisurely pace, is just as valid a reason as anyone Else's aspirations.

I think this is a great thread.

My goal is to continue doing what I have been doing all my life, with the same zeal, and same level of time and distance for as long as I can. As the years have passed by, I am no longer able to physically carry the same loads AND hike as far and fast as when I was a young man. But, with lighter equipment, I can hike as far and as fast; if not further and faster. It is not a race, but a desire to continue the journey at the same pace/level of enjoyment for as long as I can. And there is going to be a point in time, where I will have to slow down… but that does not mean I have to stop or enjoy it any less. It is my hike, right?

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughtful comments.

Lot of great comments here. Eugene, I think UL is an evolution. It starts out about gear, but once your kit is nailed down, those conversations become much less interesting. Gear that works well is barely noticed once you're out there. It's really only the gear failures that are memorable. BPL seems to be all about gear because there are many beginners looking for advice and plenty of more experienced people giving it. I wish I had known about this resource when I made my ultralight conversion.

Dug, you are correct. I guess I was just playing devils advocate for "competitiveness is not evil". You and Nick expressed it better though. Competition is about being inspired by others to bring out the best in yourself. Keeping up with the Joneses was not my intent at all. For the record, I also don't personally advocate rampant consumerism, but it would be hypocritical of me not to recognize that I have benefited from it.

Aaron, I wouldn't say I'm an extreme backpacker, but I wouldn't look at this type of adventure as contrived. For me the best trips are those that incorporate personal achievement into the adventure. I'll occasionally motorcycle camp, but it always feels like there is something missing at the end of the day when I set up camp; that feeling of having earned my rest. By pushing the boundaries of my abilities with each trip, I usually have a two-fold satisfaction when I reflect on the trip afterward (during is another matter). For example, the next trip I have planned involves 100 miles through mountainous terrain in 3 1/2 days. At my current fitness level, I could never accomplish this (and I probably won't). But when I climb stairs with a pack, trail run, or do practice hikes to prepare for the terrain, I'm already living the adventure. Like Nick said, personal competition is a potent motivator. BTW, of course you belong in a community that is about enjoyment of lightweight backpacking. It is the diversity of experiences here that makes this such a rewarding community.

Thanks all for the thoughtful comments. Great thread.

edit- "And when Ike wrote that he gets competitive seeing a certain thing (piece of gear, etc)."- Whoa Dug, this is far from what I said or implied!

Thanks Eugene.

No one "just enjoys" anything. You enjoy it for a reason. I'd argue that, insofar as you'll likely enrich your own life and the life of others by doing so, you have an obligation to figure out the source and means of said enjoyment.

"What is undeniable is that the majority of this website is about gear, without the gear BPL and what it promotes would be null. What delineates an ultralight hiker from a traditional hiker? Gear…right?"

This exactly is the root of the problem. I've seen this idea invading the perception of what it means to be UL, and it's becoming our cliche.

If anybody asked some time ago, I think the prevailing definitions of what separated ULers from other hikers/backpackers/whatever would decidedly be our philosophy. Oh perhaps to nail down that philosophy by saying it embodies minimalism.

Technology and innovation has allowed us to lighten our loads through "gear" so much so that I think we've forgotten about the focus towards minimalism, because it's easier to lighten gear, than figure out a way to do without it, or a simpler way to do it. Or, we temper a little bit of sacrifice in utility down all the way, to achieve insane SUL weights, but also it becomes a simple exercise in efficiency of gear, or planning, perfect circumstances, other than efficiency of self-sufficiency.

I think ULer's used to be the most skilled people out there. It was about efficient minimalism, a true philosophy of focus and action. I think now we're just the people that know the most about gear. We no longer know how to do more with less, we know how to do the same things with lighter.

I believe we also need to stop thinking about ourselves (or at least I do), as being participants of a "sport" in the main-stream sense. There's no evidence that we are, other than our own minds magically organizing us into some sort of unorganized competition, and corporations starting to tune into our obsession as a profit-vector. Yet they're not even having to sponsor events or give out prizes.

For me, this was never meant to be about "sport" or "competition" at all. It's supposed to be about personal evolution. Self-sufficiency, adaptability, learning to be more efficient with less than more. Living light and fast, on and off the trail. To me, this is a *skill*, not a "sport".

Running is a sport, even backpacking is a sport. Lets reclaim ultra-light as a life-style.

Right on Javan!

you can buy UL … couldnt do that before

now you can have yr UL coffee press, UL tent, UL full framed pack, UL warm down jacket, UL gas stove, UL kitchen set, UL sleeping bag, UL ultra comfy mattress …. and never give up a creature comfort … as long as you have the money

this is probably a good thing as it introduces more UL goods that more people can use …

but that simply means a person can be UL without having ever even done a day hike by going CHA CHING !!! with their platinum amex …

lighter gear is easy if you have the money …. not bringing gear or using it differently is hard …

i think i own like 3 "UL" pieces in total … ponchotarp, OR Helium, MB exl … hmmmmm

Wait wait wait Eric. Lets not get carried away here! UL Coffee Press is the single most important technological advancement in the backpacking realm PERIOD!

Seriously

I sometimes feel ambivalent toward the unending stream of "UL" gear coming on market. Take the UL coffee press for example.

OT one H, maybe it is a good thing that what some of us had to do without, when coffee press came only in full size — we can now carry a UL equivalent and enjoy our coffee!

OT other H, UL or not, that coffee press we purchased is also one more thing to clutter up our pack — one more thing that wasn't there before.

But at the end, to me, it isn't so much the weight and quantity of gear that we haul with us — or how they compare with anybody else. More so, it's a balance between how much enjoyment or safety we get out of our gear pieces — and whether our total pack weight is still within comfort range for us. If it balances out for us, then why not?

+1. Well said Javan, thanks.