“Mirror mirror on the wall, who’s the lightest of them all?”

"Running is a sport, even backpacking is a sport. Lets reclaim ultra-light as a life-style."

Yeah but… face it, some of the folks here are quite into the quest or competition or whatever of UL –> SUL–>XUL –> ?UL. But so what? If it tickles them pink with enjoyment to work toward and become the lightest, I say let them compete. Ditto for those who want to hike the fastest and farthest! Or those who want to capture the best photos.

At the end of the day, it all boils down to this: HYOH and enjoy it in whatever form you fancy.

Gear that works well is barely noticed once you're out there. It's really only the gear failures that are memorable. BPL seems to be all about gear because there are many beginners looking for advice and plenty of more experienced people giving it. I wish I had known about this resource when I made my ultralight conversion.

Ike,

I was fortunate to stumble upon BPL early on, my 'experience' as an outdoorsman is really in its infancy when in the light of many of the members here and I've found this website and the members to be an invaluable resource in my own path if you will towards efficiency and lightness in the outdoors. In the beginning I soaked everything up like a sponge, taking notes of what worked for people and what didn't, browsing through trip reports, scanning gear lists and member locales, tweaking my own choices, with the purpose of finding what worked for me. In the end what has ultimately worked for me is simply getting out there when I can and learning through my own process of trial and error, this evolutionary process is ongoing as I learn new things all the time.

Javan,

I really have little desire to delineate or define what constitutes a lightweight backpacker from a traditionalist from a heavyweight… who am I to determine? I only proposed that question as rhetorical food for thought as what I increasingly see being the focus here at BPL is gear and I think that the website could do well to shift or perhaps re-direct the focus in the direction of minimalism like you mentioned. Doing more with less.

I'm with you guys, definitely HYOH, I'm not trying to tell anybody what to do, at all.

I'd just love to see the ideologies embraced in broader terms, and let the specific goals or competitive aspects fall into a sub group of that larger whole. I do think it's important for us to ground ourselves in what the *idea* of this thing is, more than just the implementation of that idea.

My only real concern is that we're loosing the forest by focusing on the trees.

Although it's perfectly fine if your goals are extremely targeted, as long as you've made that *choice*, not just fallen into it without realizing.

Anyway, this thread, and the original posts which sparked it, have made me think more about something that's already been nagging at me. So thank you Eugene, Hendrik, and Dave, and everyone else that's participated so far.

When you first decide to try this backpacking thing the obvious thing to do is to go into a gear store get what you need. When you are just starting out you have no way of judging or questioning the experience of the salesman at the store whose "been there done that". You have, too a certain degree some confidence that the heavy gear all over the place was designed by necessity and came from a lot of feedback from experienced people.
it takes experience to know that things can be done differently and the confidence to try it. I know I got into UL because of my personality. I don't like clutter and I don't like being a pack mule. After my first real backpacking trip I was already thinking about how to lighten my burden.
Luckily I found the answer in the 2 most unlikely of places. One, I saw an article in Backpacking mag on light weight backpacking when Golite and ULA were new upstarts. Second, I bought Ray Jardines book in REI ! These ideas really opened my eyes and I knew there were others who got my style. Then the internet had all kinds of MYOG sites because UL gear was a special order item with very few options. It was out of necessity and Jardines influence that I learned to sew and learned all about fabrics and such. Then BPL came along and it became a place were all this stuff could be reviewed and discussed sometimes ad nausem.
Now we have great books explaining the how-tos and lots of great companies with off the self options. It is no longer strange to have a light load and that is the success of sites like this.

When I was a kid, I got interested in trout fishing. Specifically I "discovered" the southern Sierra's rivers and streams. I had a friend who got me interested. We would bum rides or hitch hike to these places. Then to get the less used areas, we bought a couple cheap packs and started backpacking. We soon drifted away as friends, and I continued going alone. Soon, the hiking became the purpose of the trips, not the fishing. At times I even found myself leaving my fishing gear at home.

In those days, there were not many places to buy gear, or even know what was available. If you lived close to an outfitter, sporting goods store, or Army Navy surplus store that is where you made your gear choices. Then Colin Fletcher wrote the Complete Walker, Backpacker Magazine was launched, and mail order took off with many people waiting anxiously for the REI, A16, and Campmor catalogs. Most people assembled their kit, and generally did not tinker with it too much. Then occasionally a new great book would be published and we would re-evaluate our gear. It was a slow evolution.

So for me, it was never a sport, it was just something I enjoyed doing. It was truly more about the hike.

The Internet has changed all of this. Ray Jardine's first book did not sell a lot of copies, as far as books go… but his ideas were discussed by a lot of people on the Web. Small companies sprouted and the Internet allowed them to sell their goods with small capital investment or advertising budget. Retailer and Manufacturer Websites were created, cyberspace forums and blogs popped up and more and more people were able to discuss gear and techniques. The Internet has changed everything. People with similar interests can now easily network, and in a few hours an individual can research dozens if not hundreds of options for a single piece of gear. We can now even observe the progress of people who take epic journeys in nearly real time. We can read the progress of some people thru-hiking the PCT, CDT, AT or unique adventures such as Andrew's Alaska-Yukon adventure last year. This has truly revolutionized backpacking.

A similar thing has happened to high school and college distance running. Distance running in the US had pretty declined from the heyday of the late 60's and 70's. In the past 10 years it has become popularized by the Internet and more people are running and the times have been improving at an accelerated rate. Again, the Internet has provided quick and easy access to information.

So the Internet has had a huge impact on our sport/hobby/experience/passion/awaking or whatever term/reason one backpacks.

It must be true, because you are reading this thread :)

You guys need to re-discover your G-spot and be happy with it.

"Technology and innovation has allowed us to lighten our loads through "gear" so much so that I think we've forgotten about the focus towards minimalism, because it's easier to lighten gear, than figure out a way to do without it, or a simpler way to do it.

It's supposed to be about personal evolution. Self-sufficiency, adaptability, learning to be more efficient with less than more."

These two lines really summed up the argument of the entire thread for me. And although it was I that introduced the terms "sport" and "competition" to this thread, I agree entirely. I had hoped that it was clear from the context that I was trying to describe a positive value; Being inspired by the actions of others to improve your own performance. Going with less, going farther, or just going, period. Testing personal limits. We emulate that which we adore, or something like that. This is true not just in sports, but in life. The personal evolution that results is not diminished by the fact that we got the motivation from someone else.

And by the way, running is not a sport, it is another tool for personal growth. Like UL backpacking, only faster. It's just you and the trail (or road)- what you put in is what you get out.

.

"We no longer know how to do more with less, we know how to do the same things with lighter."

I thought this bore repeating as well.

Javan summed it up well.

So how do we change this? Of course it is ultimately a personal effort, but if the community at large wanted to redirect its focus, how is that done?

I remember reading many articles on how to effectively bear-bag, use alcohol stoves, or build an effective and light clothing system. These were techniques that couldn't be bought. You had to learn.

For a few years I was constantly tweaking my gear. Constantly thinking of how I could do without certain things, or how to make something multi-use, etc. That obsession has come to a crawl, and I'm wondering if it has to do with the fact that I've run out of ideas and am simply relying on the new products being developed to lighten my weight for me. Time to get that ol' hampster up on his wheel again….

Specifically speaking about BPL, maybe the community needs to reinvigorate the MYOG forum, or the philosophy and technique forum by refocusing posts to push *knowledge* about the lightweight style instead of the gear. Maybe we could get some more articles on new techniques?

Unfortunately, I can't claim to have any of the answers.

"So how do we change this? Of course it is ultimately a personal effort, but if the community at large wanted to redirect its focus, how is that done?"

1: Put the gear forum at the bottom of the main page, Trip Reports forum at the top.

2: Write more Trip Reports.

3: No posting privileges until you submit three trip reports. If subsequent TR submissions drop below 1 per 6 months, posting privileges are suspended.

you don't change it …. BPL has indicated a desire to go more "mainstream" … witness its last few reviews

going mainstream isnt a bad thing … but it does reflect a very big focus on gear … the average joe tends not to be to focused on techniques or other such these days …. they want to be able to "buy" their experiences … often that means gear

look at all the latest blogs or articles …. most of them are either trip reports or … gear reviews … especially gear reviews

gear junkie, gear this, gear that , gear everything … its not limited to backpacking …

gear is easy … technique is hard …

Interesting thoughts… I've always been uneasy about the lust for gear and boasting of pack weights. I don't think it matters much below certain weights. It's about the experience not the equipment. And lots of setups are unrealistic for harsh trips.

And.. I'm fully guilty of not posting trip reports…

A big push to posting trip reports would be good but I don't see how it'll change the gear-centric mindset. This whole UL thing is still pretty new to me so maybe that's why going on trips just causes me to evaluate gear even more.

Maybe we need to move away from terms that define weight to terms that define minimalism by developing a system like Compact, Ultra-Compact, and Super Ultra-Compact based around the number of components in a kit. I guess those used to go hand in hand but not so much anymore. Such a system should separate the men from the boys – the more you know the less you need.

Then we get into bushcraft….

I heartily and respectfully disagree with both David and Larry.

Larry: I don't think that the focus of BPL or lightweight backpacking in general is how manly or badass you are, or skilled a survivalist you can be over a weekend. Frankly, I think weight is very much at the core of what lightweight backpacking is about, it's the limiting function is how far you can go and how comfortably you arrive at camp. There are a lot of LW backpackers which have achieve great benefit by lightening their pack while not sacrificing function. They may be less manly than you, but I see no reason to diminish their achievement of a lighter pack and what that has allowed them to do.

That does indeed seem more appropriate to a bushcraft community. You do see plenty of folks who are into UL and bushcraft for similar reasons… but I don't see any need to force the bushcraft worldview onto the UL world as a whole. Perhaps the set of people in the overlap are ready for someone to start a movement for ULV (Ultra low-volume) backpacking?

David: In all honesty, I would have never passed such a litmus test. If you're looking for a UL community strictly oriented away from gear, go ahead and create it… But I think if you imposed rules like that here you'd see people leak off to some BPL replacement. I've seen similar things tried in other online communities, and that's almost always the way things go. Do we want a club of gear-deniers, or a generally open community for the promotion and propagation of lightweight backpacking?

"I don't think that the focus of BPL or lightweight backpacking in general is how manly or badass you are, or skilled a survivalist you can be over a weekend."

I guess I shouldn't have used the cliche of "separating the men from the boys" but what I was getting at was a way to bring the focus back onto skills and multipurpose equipment. Being able to survive with minimal gear doesn't make a person manly IMO – that just means they're knowledgeable of such things. And if the average person was more knowledgeable about what it takes to survive we'd probably have fewer accidents and fewer locator beacons being sold. Not a bad thing IMO and just because you know how to do something the hard way doesn't mean you don't carry in what you need to enjoy your hike. If you handed the most spartan SUL kit to one of those crazy start a fire with some earwax and the friction from picking my nose types they wouldn't have much work ahead of them or could push it further than you and I can even dream. I figure, just like with weight, there's a line that's drawn somewhere delineating bushcraft/survival from backpacking.

Implementing a backpacking kit with few components based off of the multipurpose ethos is hardly bushcraft.

"I don't see any need to force the bushcraft worldview onto the UL world as a whole."

I think there is something to be said for knowing bushcraft skills but I much prefer to practice LNT ethics on the trail. It just takes to long to create debris shelters and fire from nothing when you don't have to. It's fun to practice in your spare time but, to me, it takes away from my time enjoying the outdoors. However, knowledge is weightless and can save your bacon. And that is what I thought we were talking about – doing more with less.

I agree with Aaron. More rules are not the answer. Limiting who can post on gear deprives the newbies of an awesome resource. I do like the idea of moving trip reports and techniques to a position of greater prominence though.

For what it's worth though, I don't think BPL is as broken as you think. It is a vibrant community made up of gearheads, MYOGers, fast packers, slow packers, people who go UL for greater comfort when hiking, people who do it to challenge themselves, packrafters, skiers, hunters, minimalists, and people just lightening up a little. If you want to bring philosophy and technique to the forefront in this community, lead by example. Lots of people do. Look at Mike C! He may come across as dogmatic to some, but he's like the zen master of UL. When he evaluates a gear list he doesn't recommend alternate gear, it's just "NIX this, NIX that, you don't need that much pack, you don't need a change of clothes, you don't need TP, etc". People may choose to follow this advice or not, but it at least opens your mind to need vs want.

Eric is also a great example (though I've often wondered if his family was massacred by yuppies when he was a child). He is always quick to point out the silliness of selling a perfectly good piece of gear for a slightly lighter one. Roger Caffin too frequently comments on the pointlessness of going below a certain weight.

If you want your world view to assume a role of greater prominence in the BPL community, then put it out there. Jack, your CDT pictures inspired me for days. I looked through every single one of the 4 sets. Dave C, I have your site bookmarked to follow your adventures and I dream of visiting your part of the country. Eugene, your trip reports and photography say much more about your love of UL backpacking than they do about gear (but your pictorial description of packing your Burn was a nice contribution to demonstrating how little you need and is not bad just because it was about gear). Javan, your whole life is an example of turning your love for UL backpacking into a lifestyle. Just about everyone who had posted here has inspired me and countless others in some way. And in general, this is a supportive community that hikes frequently and talks trash rarely.

So lead by example and show what is possible with UL travel. But when a newbie asks for advice on a piece of gear, don't hold back your experiences.

Aaron, I was of course trying to be provocative. Travis asked a question, and an answer entered my head.

I'm certainly not a gear denier, often suffer from an excessive infatuation with gear for a given activity, and have to remind myself to dial it down (knowing that I struggled in a ski mountaineering race this weekend due to skill, not gear). I've also learned a lot from this site, much of which had to do with rexamining some of my assumptions about gear.

Questioning is good.

Oh, I don't think BPL is broken at all. I just think the questions and issues that have been brought up are part of a natural evolutionary process.

I think all of us here suffer from the gear obsession, probably on a level much beyond what many do, which is why we see the issue so acutely.

Ultimately, this discussion itself is the catalyst for change. The idea has taken deep root in my mind, as I'm sure it will with others. If we feel strongly enough about it, as members of this community, and people responsible for our own ideas, it's our burden to be the change we want to see.

Gear itself isn't the problem, at all, it's just the mindset that gear can supplant knowledge. The gear, they're just tools. Just like driving nails, it doesn't matter how great your hammer is. Large or small, if you don't know how to swing it…

Sometimes it just feels like we're running around with nail-guns, framing houses, not knowing how to swing the hammer. No tool can be effectively wielded without skill, even a nail gun, but technology lowers the barrier to entry. It gets you in the game fast, but can hold you back in the long run.

I'm guilty, I've got kit in the closet, that I haven't so much as tested in my yard, let alone out in the woods.

edit: just wanted to clarify that by "all of us here" I meant those of us espousing on this thread, not everyone on BPL.

+1 Ike
+1 Javan

David: I totally agree- questioning is good!

Larry: Knowledge and skill are indeed weightless and of immeasurable value. I don't think I was arguing for the primacy of gear over skill.

I don't think there's anything wrong with creating a kit with very few components- I think it's be a fun game to play in threads and on the trail, similar to games we play with insanely lightweight kits.

Just out of curiosity, how are you reconciling your current gear doubts with your role as a SUL gear manufacturer? Please don't feel obligated to answer if it's too personal.

The issue I have with a gear-centric approach to things is twofold:

1. The search for the Holy Grail of purchases, the neverending quest to find the last shelter, pack, pillow, pad, sleeping bag you'll ever need.

And yet the only "do everything" kit is the kit that you try to do everything with.

But this takes skill, patience, and time in the field learning the benefits and shortcomings of a particular setup. Finding shortcomings, however, should not be the catalyst to throw it up on Gear Swap the second the trip is over. Every item has shortcomings, we all know this. This is where the real work and skill should come in; learning the better pitch, better site selection, technique, whatever…the better skill set to compliment the gear. This seems to be some of the underlying frustration with the gear focus on this site; increasing amounts of gear choices with little talk of how it's actually being used.

I have stopped talking about gear in most of my trip reports (unless asked) because I'm using the same stuff every time…GoLite Jam, ShangriLa 3, Ridgerest 3/4, WM Summerlite…etc. What's to talk about anymore unless I find a situation in which I had something new/unexpected happen concerning gear selection, like my recent desert disaster with my SL3 getting blown down? My initial reaction was to get a new shelter that's better in wind, but I've since decided to commit to modifying it and just getting better with its use in all conditions.

But when you're not getting out much, it's far easier to start online shopping for your solution, reading reviews, and obsessing/geeking out on statistics. We've all been there.

2. Wastefulness. Spiraling into the same old consumer nonsense. When was the last time anyone literally wore out a piece of gear? As evidenced by the plethora of high-quality, excellent condition items being offered up on Gear Swap on a daily basis, it seems not too often. That's part of my New Year's goals; wear out everything I've got. At least I'm making progress…burnt a quarter-sized hole in my Montbell Alpine Light this weekend!

Seeing duct tape on my jackets makes me happy these days.

This ties back into going the consumer route and looking for a spending solution as opposed to a modification or simply more time with an item. For better or worse, I just don't have the money to spend anymore- there are other priorities. I find that this negates a large chunk of BPL from my interest. What do I care about the Outdoor Retailer show or gear review after gear review when I've got no money to spend and nothing I need? Unless, of course, I want to reinvent the wheel yet again, this time seeing if I can make it 2 ounces lighter. How many times have I done this now? Personally, I'm over it.

Just some thoughts, no judgment on anybody here.

Ike,

Fair question. I don't feel too guilty as a maker, since I flatter myself by thinking that I steer customers in the direction of comfort and efficiency first, and weight second. I'm very remiss to make compromises with quilts for instance, that would lighten them at the expense of adequate coverage and comfort. I first started making quilts for my comfort, and continue for others'. To me, the big advantage of quilts *is* their comfort, when properly designed, the weight savings is just a really big bonus. Still, thats why I don't make straight taper quilts anymore, and rarely half-tapers, and why I really try to talk everyone into sewn footboxes, instead of draw-cords for anything 35deg or under, even though it's more work for me.

Ultimately that's the paradox of this quandary. The gear is an essential piece of the puzzle. However, as a gear maker, I feel a responsibility to make sure it's genuine and useful instead of egregious, and to consider whether the gear I make can add depth, or remove it from the experience. To my mind, quilts require more skill to use effectively, but reward a multitude of advantages quid pro quo. So I'd consider that progressive use of gear.

Secondly, after this next big batch of orders I've got on the board, I'm going to stop taking them for a while. Maybe all summer. I was hoping to do an AT thru this year, but I might not be able to swing the time(read: gf might be upset), but I'll at least be out as much as possible everywhere else, probably do the JMT, and probably take at least one trip back to South America. I need some time to really learn more about the gear I'm making by being out there with it more, to bolster the direction, re-evaluate the needs.

If I don't do the AT, I'll still be making gear in-between trips, but likely mostly for myself, and testers. I'm really more interested in creating new tools for the outdoor experience, over rehashing the same old UL gear status quo. Some things I've got in mind, I hope will add versatility, hopefully encouraging more interesting trips and backwoods experiences. I'm also really interested in the crossover potential of UL philosophies and gear making strategies toward other skill sets. Bushcrafting is a great example.

I'd like to be spending my time working on new things, new gear, new adventures, new whatever, instead of producing quantity of anything. My brain works much faster than my hands.

Otherwise, I don't really know, it's definitely an evolutionary time for me personally. Sorry, complicated long answer to a short question, thanks for making me think about it more deeply.

+1 Craig. Absolutely loved it.