No More pup tents please

"Now Lynn — was that really so hard?"

No, but what IS hard is that I've been three times a fool (though this last time I knew I was a fool). Because if I said what I really felt, it would have looked like I was bashing a particular designer, while putting another designer (or two) on a pedestal. It just happens that all three of the pup tents I have used have been from the same company, and the (non-pup) tents which I have grown to love are from another company. But I didn't want to get into that game, so I thought it would suffice to say why I didn't like pup-tents in general and this latest one in particular, rather than focusing on just one model from a particular company. I'm sure there are other pup-tents out there which I would also hate, I just haven't tried them.

What I really want to say is "Roger C, please find someone to make your tent designs for us".

Just because you think one company sucks doesn't mean you are putting the other's on a pedestal. Just say it. You think Six Moon Designs suck. There is a thread on here that the title is The North Face sucks. Nobody has a problem bashing big companies. Why exclude the small ones?

I don't get it..

Lynn has repeatedly said here that she doesn't and didn't like 'pup-tents'.

The Haven is a 'pup-tent'.

Lynn doesn't like it.

Big deal. Who didn't see this coming? If you think you have the needs of Lynn, you've learned that the Haven may not be for you.

If you are not quite like Lynn, you've learnt nothing and the internet has eaten more of your life.

Chill out everybody..

Absolutely.

I do NOT think SMD sucks, and BTW the NF TadPole was one of my favourite tents for over a decade. However, I haven't tried any other SMD products, so all I can comment on is that I think, based on my limited experience of SMD pup-tent style shelters (and the bad old days of scouting), I can state that I don't like pup tents, and I would like to see the innovations in lighter tents head more in the direction of Roger Caffin's style of tent rather than more, 'lighter' pup tents. Obviously some folks are quite happy with the one and two pole designs of current UL tents, but then again, some folks like plain tarps, and they're not my style either.

It seems, at least one other person on this site has similar feelings (Mary D). But also, for those thinking about the Haven in particular, be warned that just because it's double skinned does not necessarily mean it will keep condensation from entering your inner sanctum.

Lynn,
Why not just take the time and effort to post a review on the Readers Gear Review forum complete with pictures and your your rating. I think others may better except your criticism if expressed in that forum and format. But then again I may be wrong in thinking this may be the case.

"Now Lynn — was that really so hard?"

No, but what IS hard is that I've been three times a fool (though this last time I knew I was a fool). Because if I said what I really felt, it would have looked like I was bashing a particular designer, while putting another designer (or two) on a pedestal…".

Lynn — If all of us will just be more forthright about BOTH likes and dislikes — then not just hikers but the gear makers too will benefit tremendously!

But alas, it's a lot easier (and popular) to post the positives and join the cheer leading squad — and that's what most people post most of the time. Sure, we can be critical too, but I have noticed how "fans" tend to hold back on their criticisms.

It's both funny (and sad) keeping track of all the negatives going back and forth among forum members via PM's and emails — off the forum radar screen.

I can't say categorically that SMD is no good, because I have an SMD Comet pack (now discontinued, but they still have its larger "brothers," the Starlight and the Traveler) and absolutely love it. When I got it (5 years ago) I loaded up my gear and tried it on. It felt as though it were custom made just for me! I still find it extremely comfortable even with much heavier weights than I should be carrying (like the time I carried a deceased relative's ashes for 3 days to where he wanted them scattered). I've had experience with only one of their tents and it didn't work out for me. The person who bought it from me, though, really loves it.

That being said, I prefer the Tarptent designs because the ones I've used have better ventilation and therefore much less condensation. Of course I'm comparing three Tarptent models to one SMD model, which is hardly a representative sample of either.

and Ben I do also…no harm no foul….We all get along and keep on keeping on

"But alas, it's a lot easier (and popular) to post the positives and join the cheer leading squad — and that's what most people post most of the time. Sure, we can be critical too, but I have noticed how "fans" tend to hold back on their criticisms."

Yeah, I see this a lot too. And to be fair, sometimes it's just a lack of adequate field testing. A lot of posts along the lines of: got it, set it up in the living room, looks great, or took it out this weekend, worked great, but the weather was fine. And also to be fair, no shelter is perfect. Even my most favorite tarptent needed lots of mods before it became my favorite. But at least I could fix it with mods. A pup tent OTOH is just too fundamentally lacking for my needs to be *fixable*. However, there were also some things I like about the Haven. The colour is nice for a change (am getting sick of dull gray), and being able to pitch the inner by itself is great.

BTW, for those that have, or are thinking about getting something like the Haven, you might want to check out Grip Clips: http://shelter-systems.com/gripclips/

These could easily be added to the sides to allow guying out to a stick or something to raise the fly away from the mesh. It's a light no-sew option which comes in handy at times…

Rich,
"Then I need to go back to grad school and get a physics degree just to figure out how to make it tight enough and adjust the direction of this and that so that 1"

How's that? I can't speak for all of them, but I have a Scarp1 and a Grace Duo (and just sold a Big Agnes Seedhouse SL2 to a hopefully satisfied forum member) and I have to say, the Scarp is startlingly easy to pitch. The Grace is definitely not as easy to pitch as a Scarp, but on my 2nd attempt pitching it, I got a decently taught pitch in about 10 minutes.

I don't always carry trekking poles (and forgot mine on this trip), and don't need anything that didn't come in the box that Henry sent in order to pitch my Scarp. Except a little space, that is. And more time for backpacking wouldn't hurt. But I don't blame Ron Bell or Henry Shires for the fact that paying the bills takes up valuable backpacking time ;)

Regarding 'pup tents' or trekking pole supported A – frames (TPSAF) as I would call them, I am with Lynn in not being a huge fan of this general style of tent. The problem with a TPSAF is that the roof is really only high between the trekking poles (unlike a tent that uses a curved arch pole). Making the peak height higher helps a bit, but the unavoidable reality is that you're only going to be able to sit up in about 1/3 of the tent closest to the peak. If the tent design is a true A shape then you'll probably hit your head on the roof when you situp since the roof isn't very high right above where you are sleeping. The Haven sorta deals with this by moving the peak closer to the head end of the tent. This is probably a good call, but it does mean you get a larger unsupported span between the peak and the feet end of the tent which makes it that much more vulnerable to silnylon sag. I bet cuben would do a lot better in this application. This whole design is good for some people, but if you are wanting a tent with a fair amount of livable space then you're better off looking at other pole supported designs that have more interior volume.

The Haven does have the Bamboo skewers at the corners to prevent the roof from getting too low near the ends and this is good, but you're still not going to be sitting up in a large portion of the tent. IMO, this is not a bad design, but it is a compromise that has both positives and negatives. On the downside, you don't have the headroom that most tents have, but on the positive side you save half a pound or more in weight and hopefully the bamboo skewers are high enough to keep the entire floor area usable so most sleepers can utilize the full length of the tent for their sleeping bag.

It feels like only a matter of time before I make a tent from scratch. I've got a few ideas….

Hmmm… you wouldn't be a New Zealander Lynn? 'Tramper', pup tents… the vocabulary is familiar.
So should 'MountainMule' if you're a Kiwi of a certain vintage..
Somewhat on topic, do you have a MacPac Microlight in your stable? Our American friends won't have seen one, but it's a tough, four season, solo, double-walled, heavy-duty tub floor, single hooped creation which weighs 1.7kg. [ pictures available in Google-land]
Too heavy for the uber lightweight brigade but I've seriously field tested my Microlight in 50knot plus winds and can vouch for its toughness.
I proudly own a Squall and love it, but I wouldn't put it through the hoops [ pun intended ] that the Microlight has survived unscathed..
Horses for courses… love both my tents.

I think Peter makes an important point. You want more useful interior volume for a certain footprint, then a hooped design is the way to go, but it will need to be more heavily constructed to survive the wind. Light long poles are a failure point waiting to happen IMO.

The strongest 'pup' tent I ever had was my ULTIMATE 'tramp'. True A frame design, (two poles in sleeves at the front). Weighed 2 kg. It withstood real storms on open ground that would wreck any dome design of the same weight. It was about the same size and shape as a Golite Hut2. The inner tent had a heavy bathtub floor which lasted 10 years hard use without a leak.

The SMD HAven has some big panels for sure, and Lynn grip clips suggestion is a good one for when the weather looks heavy.

I too would buy a commercially produced Caffin Tunnel design with straight cf pole sections. I'm not sure Cuben would be the right material for a tunnel though.

BTW, for those that have, or are thinking about getting something like the Haven, you might want to check out Grip Clips: http://shelter-systems.com/gripclips/

I had been meaning to post about these myself, after reading about them in this months TGO magazine. Eddy Meechan mentions using them to add side guy lines to a cuben tarp.

OK, I've been away, camping in my Haven, so only just now glanced at this thread.

I think I must be using a different Haven than what people are discussing here. We are talking about the new SMD Haven, correct?

Grip-clips?
The Haven does not need grip clips, the tie-outs are already available and I have had to use them with great success in strong wind.

Sagging walls?
It is summer, but we have experienced some temperature extremes and at least 6 rain showers. I have not had any sagging walls, the inner net has not touched the outer once.
It sounds like some people need to spend some time learning how to pitch it before they write a review.

Headroom issues?
The Haven has more headroom than any other two person double wall shelter I've ever used. A previous 3 person, 6 lb, dome that we considered spacious doesn't have as much headroom.
Don't believe otherwise, for it's small footprint, it is huge.

Ventilation issues?
The Haven has more ventilation than any other two person tent we've ever used. Of course if you close it down tight it could be stuffy, but why would you?

You pitch the fly first, so no wet inner if you have to pitch in the rain.

You can open the vestibules wide open, even if you suspect it will rain. When it starts raining reach out and pull down and zip the fly up. Exiting the tent is not required.

I will admit there is a price to be paid for the headroom and small footprint. That price is steep side walls.
Steep side walls, like tunnel tents can flap in a side wind, but this has proven to be a non-issues when I use the extra ties.

I was only able to skim the posts, so sorry if I missed some of the comments.
I think I'll take the PUP TENT from now on when I backpack with my wife.

I have owned and camped in many shelters in my life, including pup tents, flat tarps, bivys, freestanding domes, tunnels, a-frames, tipis, pyramids, …
I consider the Haven to be the best designed double wall, bathtub floor, ultralight two person backpacking shelter made so far. It might take some experience and practice to understand why. For me it was a no-brainer after only a few nights with it.

Maybe there are noticeable differences in manufacturing tolerances?

Maybe we could get comparison pics for the uninitiated? Lynn, Steve?

I posted this in an earlier thread.
I only have one decent picture, we keep forgetting to bring our camera.
If you look close you can see where we added extra ties to help reduce the flapping. There was a forecast for a an approaching storm with strong winds that night.

@Steven:

"Grip-clips? The Haven does not need grip clips, the tie-outs are already available and I have had to use them with great success in strong wind.

"If you look close you can see where we added extra ties to help reduce the flapping."

So which is it, Steven?

"Somewhat on topic, do you have a MacPac Microlight in your stable?"

I am not a fan of the MicroLight, but I'm sure it's a tough little tent. The *best* tents I've used for rough conditions are the MacPac Olympus and Minaret. But they really are off topic here (except to say that Roger's hoop tents bear an uncanny resemblance to the Olympus…and I still really want one). RE: Pup-tent, it's American in origin, not a local slang, more specifically:

"Pup in this sense is the same as puppy "young dog". The notion was that such tents were so small and primitive that they were only fit for dogs (the term dog tent dates from the same period) or pups. The tents were so named because they resembled dog kennels. Pup tents, as you know, are indeed small and of a simple A-shaped construction, basically two sheets of canvas or other material tied together. They were used in the military originally, and the term pup tent dates in writing from the U.S. in 1863, and it is likely that it was in use for some years prior to being written down."

Sounds to me, not like Stephen and I are using different tents, but are comparing them to different standards. My idea to try the Haven was based on speculation that was bantered around in the thread Double Rainbow versus haven. The Double Rainbow is my "gold standard" for UL tents (Roger's Cs design aside). Now, as Ron said in that post, comparing the DR to the Haven is like apples to oranges, and I now completely agree. Aside from the obvious difference in that the Haven can be pitched with inner or outer separate, there is a world of other differences, non of them, IMHO, in favour of the Haven (except the colour).

I find the majority of folks on this site will buy something new and think it's the best thing since sliced bread. I think that's just human nature. You've spent a lot of money, and waited in anticipation for this great new thing, you've been told it's gonna be really great, and psyche yourself up for it. Most of us are not about to turn around and say "the emperor has no clothes".

But of course everything about this sport is subjective, which is one of the reasons I didn't hesitate to post my opinions even though I have the tent still to sell. I KNEW there would be folks who will want this tent badly no matter how bad of a review I gave it, and this has proven correct. And you know what? This tent most likely WILL be an improvement in some ways over whatever shelter they are trying to replace, so I don't feel at all bad about selling to them, especially since they will now be fully informed of the conflicting points of view and possible problems (and possible solutions, ie get yourself some grip clips). So, if Stephen says the Haven (or any other pup tent) is the best darn tent he ever used, I believe him. But I have different standards. But This thread is still mainly about pup tents in general, and the Haven as yet another example of what I don't like in a shelter.

Steve writes: "I consider the Haven to be the best designed double wall, bathtub floor, ultralight two person backpacking shelter made so far. It might take some experience and practice to understand why. For me it was a no-brainer after only a few nights with it."

I have to second Steve's comment on the Haven. It is a well thought out double wall design with a lot more room in it than Lynn would have you believe. Pitches tight as the pictures on the "Haven first impressions" thread shows.
I got the Haven because I live and camp in a HIGH humidity region. I have had no condensation get in the net-tent.

Benjamin, regarding:
"So which is it, Steven?"
What I mean is, that grip-clips aren't needed as you can see in the picture, I have extra lines attached to the included loops.

As far as the perfect shelter, we all live in different realities.

I had been hoping to find a good deal on an SMD Lunar Duo as I thought it was the best design for my two person needs. Dual side entry, good headroom, extra tie-out points, but most of all, less than three lbs.

SMD does a good job of showing the different dimensions.

Around the time I was able to purchase the Lunar Duo, I started comparing it to the Haven and realized that it had features that I liked. Especially the smaller footprint.

I have had too many situations where it was difficult to pitch two person bathtub style tents. There never seemed to be enough flat ground.

I also liked the fact that it looked like it had better ventilation for hot weather camping and the double wall aspect meant that I could close it up tighter in the winter as condensation shouldn't be as much of a problem. Sure the condensation would be there, but not so annoying.

As far as people always liking their new shelter, that is usually true.
I personally have immediately disliked a few shelters I have purchased. Some were very popular with friends of mine.

I can usually spot what I don't like about a shelter before I buy them. All shelters have their limitations. None are perfect for all people in all situations.

The decision to go with the Haven was a compromise between my wife and I. I require an ultralight shelter. My wife requires dual side entry, headroom, a bathtub floor and bug mesh.

There are lots of nice shelters out there, but most are heavier than my weight requirement. If I could carry more weight or my wife could deal with less headroom and/or single entry, I would have more options for a two person shelter.

"I consider the Haven to be the best designed double wall, bathtub floor, ultralight two person backpacking shelter made so far."

Yes, well if we're going to narrow it down to fully double walled two person tents, we would have to be comparing it to something like the Scarp 2, which I have no experience with.

" I have had no condensation get in the net-tent."

You guys must think I make this stuff up just for fun. The tarp portion of the Haven gets condensation just as easily as any other silnylon shelter (or any other double walled tent for that matter). If the silnylon sags too much or wind blows down on it, it's gonna touch that mesh and wick through. To deny it can happen is silly. Also wind can knock the condensation off, and the mesh is not impermeable to this moisture. Again, this can happen with single walled shelters too, but I thought the point of a double walled shelter was to prevent fly condensation from entering the inner tent. I might suggest and easy solution to this would be to use a UL water resistant fabric for the top of the inner (much like is offered for the Double Rainbow and the NF TadPole). This would add little weight, while making the most vulnerable part of the canopy much more water resistant. Oh, and add a side guy out!!!!!

As to shelter standards, here's Steven's reference point:

"I'm normally a tarp and bivy camper, but my wife isn't. She requires a lot more creature comforts than I do. So the Haven is our compromise for when we go together."

So again, I would stress that the Haven is probably a step up for Steven (and his wife), but a step down for me.

"What I mean is, that grip-clips aren't needed as you can see in the picture, I have extra lines attached to the included loops."

I am referring to a guy out (grip clip??) in the middle of the wide expanse of fabric over the foot of the tent. This is where most of the sagging and wind movement is a problem. Just like in the Refuge-X, but hopefully a bit sturdier attachment…