Groupthink at camp MYOG..

En,
In general, this forum is one of the nicest ones out there. Part of that is because people use their real names. This encourages civility. So, maybe it is surprising that people have reacted with such hostility to your post.

On the other hand, what did you really expect? Seriously, what did you think would be the reaction. If I can paraphrase your argument (and my apologies if I don't do it justice) you are saying three things:

1) The folks who make their own gear here lack creativity.
2) They lack creativity because they prefer to listen to others.
3) This thread belongs here, instead of MYOG.

OK, let me take these one by one:

1) This is a rather rude and unsubstantiated statement. Have you read every post in MYOG? Have you read Bill Fornsell's blog? I think Bill and Huzefa's ideas (just to name a couple of guys off the top of my head) are extremely creative. It is extremely hard to measure creativity, so I'll ask another simple question: Is your pack load lighter than Bill Fornshell's? In what way are his and Huzefa's ideas hampered by "group speak".

2) I quoted Newton ("If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants"). Do you think he would have seen even further if he ignored those giants? Really? Do you think he was wrong in making that statement? Hey, don't get me wrong; there are lots of great inventions that stem from people who decide to ignore assumptions. But most of those folks build upon the work of others (even if they decide to make something completely different). Oh, and the two guys I mentioned before are big contributors to the site. They comment a lot, usually on the MYOG forum.

3) You still haven't made a good case for why this thread belongs here instead of maybe Chaff or MYOG. It seems you are critical of people who make their own gear. So, it would seem to make sense (after reading the many posts on that forum) to then turnaround and make those same criticisms. Then again, if you read that forum more, maybe you wouldn't make that comment. If your criticism is about MYOG people as well as manufacturers, then maybe it belongs here (or maybe in Chaff).

Move it to chaff or better yet delete. I've got to get back to fixing my sewing machine.

This thread reminds me of this chart of selected patents granted in 2009:

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2009/12/13/magazine/13endpaper.html

@ Douglass, thank you for your thought out reply, I do read each of them and value everybody's opinions.

For the last time, the purpose of this thread was not to lambaste people for so-called uncreative projects (your words not mine), but rather to spur creative thought as a element in your design process BEFORE seeking community support.

It is easy to pick a choice word or two and spin it in a post such that I look like I'm demeaning the efforts of everybody. Everything from my screen name to my choice wording is being criticized, but I wonder if you're missing the forest for the trees.

The arguement that those without resource, simply copying is the best answer – to this i say, of course! But it seems to me that most people reading this are going above and beyond in their hiking gear management anyway, and could relate to the value in independent creative thinking before communicating all stages of the build.

I proofed the mature market argument, examples like Steripen, Active Harness Pack that makes it's own electricity, the slept-on Back N Front packs..

Please do not delete the thread or move it to whatever Chaff is. Many people spent time and genuine thought to make it, and to brush it aside is a diservice to everybody current and future.

On your future projects I hope you try this method. Just once. Have some fun. I have a hunch you will enjoy it.

I must confess I don't understand the point you are trying to get across. Most folks on this forum are not even interested in MYOG (which is why we have a separate forum for it). For those who are into MYOG, some will be creative and try new things, others are just not inclined to take such risks, especially when dealing with expensive and often fragile materials, and for me limited time to work on MYOG projects. After all, this is just gear. We are not trying to find a cure for cancer, or even develop new electronic devices. The biggest innovation in UL gear that I can think of involves taking less gear, not developing more 'revolutionary' gear. Indeed, the only thing I would like to see get lighter in my pack is food and water. Nothing else in my pack is in need of revolutionary leaps in discovery.

Even I am beginning to think this looks like chaff. Maybe Dave T is rubbing off on me :-)

Funny that you would use a G4 as your example. My son, when he was 15, got interested in sewing. Since we backpack I bought a G4 kit from Quest. It was a tough first project but he did a real nice job. He has used it quite a bit.

Is the G4 the best thing out there? Probably not. However, where else could you get a pattern and materials for $40.00 for such a large and useful pack? It was a great starting point. After this project my son and I have talked about what we would have done differently to make the pack smaller and lighter since the volume of the pack is way too much for our needs.

That project is what gave us experience in making that style of pack. Now we have Cuben to play with. Our experience following the G4 pattern will help us make some Cuben packs.

I would rebut your claim about a non mature market. The active harness pack would have no place in the UL community, how ever neat the scaled up shake flashlight idea is. People have already made front/back packs (4-5 years ago if im not mistaken, and several other times since). Neat idea on paper, but when it comes down to practicality, adding 'back sweat' and heat retention of being covered in gear to your front would make for a less comfy experience even with better load transfer. Also, with an UL load, the need for a front pack is eliminated to begin with.
Many recent advances in gear have come due to advances in technology. lighter, stronger nylons, eVent, cuben fiber, MSR miox, competitive synthetic insulations. Its when these happen (usually in fields unrelated to backpacking) that we are able to take advantage them through design.

Not to try and hamper your own creativity. I would love to see some of the things you are going to make and hear how practical they are after you put them into use. I still have some ideas that may be considered out there that I do plan on attempting to make when I get back to the states and my sewing machine.
Not to toot my own horn, but I too enjoy the lifestyle of being a self made millionaire and only 23 years old, I just wish it didnt take 1,200 Korean Won to make 1 US dollar :(

I've been thinking more about this thread, and I must say I disagree with the basic premise. i see the evolution of "gear" or electronics ro whatever, as just that-evolution. Nature moves us forwards in one of two ways. Most commonly nature evolves, that is, many hundreds if not thousands of gradual changes that, taken one at a time, don't make much difference, but taken on the whole it leads to new species and niches being filled. This is evolution at it's most successful because it takes something that already works, and makes it work better. Then there is cataclysmic selection. This is not evolution as such, it is more like when the dinosaurs died out and left room for warm-blooded mammals. The warm-blooded mammals were already around, they were just waiting for a niche to open up. This is a much riskier method of 'evolving' as it is often all-or-nothing, and most of the time the hoped for niche doesn't open up and the beast goes extinct.

If I know nothing about MYOG, should I go buy a second hand sewing machine and figure out how to use it, spend a few months or years working out what kinds of seams work best in which situations, (through trial and error) and buying swags of material to weigh and test for UL, tear resistance, water resistance, stretch, comfort and breathability etc…and then try to make a shelter out of it, not knowing anything about how forces are transferred, how to reinforce important bits, how big to make it etc…or maybe ditch the sewing machine and do it all by hand sewing like our ancestors, maybe make it out of reindeer pelts?

Naaaah. I will take what's already known on the subject, and apply it to my own end goals. I will modify it as needed, or if I'm a complete noob I'll follow the directions as best I can and make important mistakes that I will learn from. This process does not stop me from also coming up with a Eureka idea, but the fact is most of us don't have a lot of those Eureka moments, so tweaking and slowly evolving a design is the next best (and proven) approach.

Or as others have pointed out correctly, why reinvent the wheel? Our strength as a species is that we can learn from others endeavors, both their successes and failures, rather than having to make the same mistakes all over again. Following roughly in others footsteps is not lazy, it is often smart. OTOH, to follow blindly without asking why is stupid…

Perhaps the OP does have one really good point. Instead of evolution of gear, where is the "improbable" or "impossible" gear? The model T is not a lot different than the Taurus, just an evolution of the product. A jet pack would be revolutionary.

"where is the "improbable" or "impossible" gear? "

It's been around for quite a while if you hang out here long enough. There have been concepts thrown around for helium filled gear, a company actually making argon-filled insulation, and all sorts of theoretically improbable ideas over time. It's one thing to dream, it's quite another to make the dream come true. Dreaming up impossible gear takes no talent at all. It's dreaming up far-fetched but "possible" gear that takes talent.

"A jet pack would be revolutionary."

Not really, at least not in this day and age. They are around. They just need to evolve into something more suitable for mass-marketing.

alligators?

Im still waiting to see your inventive innovations …

(No Sarcasm)

I've decided to move the thread into the "General Lightweight Backpacking Discussion" category (not Chaff) because I feel the conversation is still centered around backpacking.

Keep in mind that crying "troll" isn't adding to the conversation. Although the O.P. does seem to be quite opinionated, that goes along well with the stance they're taking. There is a fine line between a troll and Howard Roark (The Fountainhead).

I believe it was Thomas Edison who explained "I didn't fail 999 times. I learned 999 ways not to build it."

Most of the material that we use for our gear can be quite pricey (ie ti, synthetics, cartridge systems for filters, canister stoves just to ball park it.) It would be foolish, wasteful and expensive not to heed the advice of others in these matters. If you hang out for a while you will notice two types on our myog forum. Those such as Tim, Roger, and Huzefa to to name a few that I would classify as 'leaders'. We respect their knowledge and experience. The majority of us use variations on proven tech because that is the logical way for knowledge to be gained. I think that could be what make us a little different than lower mammals. Just my way of thinking. Open Fire!

Hike Hard, Hike Often
BJ