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Groupthink at camp MYOG..


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  • #1562533
    Brian UL
    Member

    @maynard76

    Locale: New England

    "There are always improvements and breakthroughs. None of which would ever happen if people continually copied each other."

    "GOOD ARTIST COPY, GREAT ARTIST STEAL"
    -PICCASO

    #1562545
    EndoftheTrail
    BPL Member

    @ben2world-2

    DaveT:

    I was counting on you to get the moderator to move this thread to MYOG — or Chaff! You're slacking off again! :)

    #1562548
    James Byrnes
    Spectator

    @backfeets1

    Locale: Midwest.... Missouri

    I believe that the most important first step in the inventive process is the gathering of ideas and existing solutions to the problem or project at hand. Developing a broad base of knowledge, even in unrelated topics / categories, serves the melding of parts into a synergistic creation. Observing the MAD scientist in others often brings great joy to my life! Others triumphs entertain, teach, and prevent my wasting time and material, so in this regard I must disagree that "group think" is bad. In fact it is critical to rapid advancement in any endeavor. This of course is just my highly advanced opinion.

    Get out and hike, have a nice day….geeze.

    #1562549
    YAMABUSHI !
    BPL Member

    @thunderhorse

    I dont know but i think I like this guy!

    It seems some people are thinner skinned than others…

    It's not like he walked into your house farted in your cheerios and stood on your coffee table preaching.

    It seems as though he's putting out a challenge to push the edges of creativity, and not just to subscribe to any one UL mantra whether it be RAYWAY or whatever.

    As Ive seen, others see UL as a point of divergence from the masses (as in the how has UL made you and outcast thread to name one) but within the UL community there is still the masses (albiet a smaller lighter group).

    One thing I feel particularly strong on is doing UL and SUL right (and Spendy isnt always the answer). When searching for UL gear I dont just run to the UL market. I just take a different look at common place stuff or tinker with making my own (even it be just to pass the time when the tinker bug stikes). Yet I think we can all agree at some level that you get what you pay for and the cutting edge isnt cheap.

    One of En's points is clearly that trial and error are far better teachers than just buying the approved UL gear. And as someone else noticed BPLers dont seem to run their gear into the ground they frequently buy updated versions of gear well before the lifespan, of lets say their pack, expires. So if you dont use your pack till every last thread dies how will you know what could be better?

    Overall I just saw En proposing a challenge to think freely and try something before BPLing it.

    -rollender Donner Pferd

    #1562554
    Eric Blumensaadt
    BPL Member

    @danepacker

    Locale: Mojave Desert

    I'm a gear "tinkerer". I buy gear that I like and very often do small or large modifications to it to suit my needs. Seldom do I make gear from scratch. Too much good stuff already out there.

    TO WIT:

    Purchased a Camelback Commander 2,747 cu. in hunting pack
    for backcountry winter skiing and snowshoeing.

    MODIFICATIONS>

    WAISTBELT> cut off wimpy fabric belt & replaced it W/REI Ridgeline padded backpack belt behind the factory lumbar pad. Had to seam rip the lumbar pad to get the belt behind & had a cobbler bar tack the pad above the belt. Perfect fit!

    SIDE POCKETS> Added REI side pockets & replaced lower ladder buckle on side compression webbing W/ quick release buckles for fast on-off of pockets.

    BOTTOM STRAPS> Had cobbler sew on 3/4" webbing & Q.R. buckles on pack bottom & lower back to attatch sleeping pad.

    INTERNAL FRAME> Placed 1" wide aluminum stays (material from Loew's) inside back of pack's hydration pouch. Melted holes W/ hot spike & bolted frame in W/ stainless bolts, wshers & Nyloc nuts. This gives true weight transfer to the new padded belt.

    NOW I have a "day and a half pack" that carries well and has the features I need plus all the features it came with that I wanted like a shovel pocket for my avy shovel.

    So, no, I don't do MYOG from scratch but, yes, I do mods, sometimes extensive as W/ this pack. I'll bet many of us do this to our gear. Ideas most likely come to us while on the trail B/C that's where we see the need for a Better Mousetrap. And we often post these mods – IF they worked for us. :)

    PLUS, comments we post on commercial gear is used by most gear companies to improve products or design new ones. IT'S A TWO WAY STREET OF IDEAS FOR CONSTANT IMPROVEMENT.

    #1562557
    Tim Marshall
    BPL Member

    @marshlaw303

    Locale: Minnesota

    My frustration with this whole thing is the idea that everyone who doesn't want to be an innovator is wrong. There are a lot of MYOGers who make their own gear because it is cheaper, they desire to build it themselves, or what they want is commercially unavailable. If a person is happy with the gear they have made how can anyone tell them that they are wrong because someone else made it that way first. It's just gear. People who don't make gear everyday will most likely not start MYOG with the idea that they will make 10 shelters, or packs or quilts or whatever. If they want to take a proven design and tweak it to fit their needs they should be able to do so without being slapped on the hand and told they are causing the halt of gear advancement. This is what has me so frustrated. Most people who MYOG aren't going to be innovators, only a small percentage will actually come up with something different enough for us all to take notice. But when those people and pieces of gear come along there is absolutely no reason that others can't follow in making gear that now uses the new advanced feature of material or whatever(to all: don't quote this later when selling your cuben quilt copies, i'll be unhappy and i'm big). I am sure not many MYOGers can say that Bill F. has influenced things they've made, or Ray J. People will always influence people and that's ok. If you happen to be one of the influencers my hat is off to you, but don't expect everyone else to be there with you. I am not frustrated with the idea that we try the untried or explore the unexplored, thats 1/2 the fun, i am frustrated with the suggestion (as i read it) that those that aren't doing so are hurting the gear community.

    -Tim

    #1562559
    Dave T
    Member

    @davet

    .

    #1562564
    Tim Marshall
    BPL Member

    @marshlaw303

    Locale: Minnesota

    the nice thing too. You could make MYOG copies for all your pieces of gear and it is very likely that ALL the people you meet on the trail will be blown away with how creative you are. Nobody will ever know Bill or Ray designed it first. The MYOG community is a small subsection of the UL community which isn't really all that big either (relatively compared to traditional hikers) Where talking about a small community of people sharing their work and through that sharing everyone is making better gear. I know i have improved my gear by reading what others have done and I hope that what i have done has inspired others as well. This is how i want it to be, free to share, free to try(like drugs in the 60's). If you don't want your idea to be copied don't post on it. Otherwise it is all here to advance us as a whole, i don't think we're competing are we?

    -Tim

    #1562565
    YAMABUSHI !
    BPL Member

    @thunderhorse

    #1562567
    Bob Gross
    BPL Member

    @b-g-2-2

    Locale: Silicon Valley

    Tim, don't take criticism from a troll.

    You should shed that criticism like silnylon sheds raindrops.

    I suspect a lot of readers here appreciate what you are doing and how you are getting there. More power to you.
    –B.G.–

    #1562570
    Tim Marshall
    BPL Member

    @marshlaw303

    Locale: Minnesota

    Most people who have read my posts for awhile would tend to know i am a little hot tempered. It does get me in trouble sometimes but i try not to get mad for no reason. I just don't want the guy who made his first g4 and is happy as can be to read something like this (orig post) and feel like somehow he should be less proud of what he has accomplished.

    -Tim

    #1562571
    Bob Gross
    BPL Member

    @b-g-2-2

    Locale: Silicon Valley

    Don't get mad. Get even.

    (just joking)

    –B.G.–

    #1562590
    David Wills
    Member

    @willspower3

    Bill F. influenced me to make a quilt too small. Luckily, that led me to making a top bag out of it having a lighter warmer piece of gear than would otherwise be usable.

    This is the first I have seen of the 'typical' internet style post here on BPL. It feels like some innocence has been lost…

    If you look closely En, you can see tons of hair brained schemes put into practice in the MYOG forums of this and other sites. I think their hay day was about 4-5 years ago when the magic combination of number of people and lack of experience or other options came together to form a cornucopia of duct tape, bubble wrap, emergency blankets, and off the wall shelter/rain gear, all-in-one type things. Im sure some of those things ended up being cottage gear of today, while countless other collect dust in a closet or slowly decomposing in a landfill.

    I think UL backpacking now is in an era of refinement. People have access tons of choices and years of UL experience to do the most basic of tasks required of gear- keeping you warm, dry, and sane.

    If you really want to see an area where innovation hasn't quite plateaued as much, you may want to consider the hammock forums guys. Their additional challenges in gear construction and lack of availability have led to some pretty wild ideas and ridiculous geometries to save weight, or at least make hammock camping practical. They are quite impressive with cat curved, differential cut, elastic baffle underquilts and that bridge hammock thing.

    Im sorry you mistook a mature marketplace for groupthink and then made a fool because of it. Get out in the woods some more where the real prize is…

    #1562602
    En Deizeler
    BPL Member

    @gimpslayer

    All Right!

    I am so happy that this has seen as much activity as it has. Because, it means that the message is being delivered. If just one person in the community takes the point to heart, the thread is a success.

    By believing it is a mature marketplace you make it so in your mind. Please consider the limits you impose to yourself by thinking that way.

    My professional career, for the past twenty years, has been inventing and creating miniature electronic devices. One thing I've learned is that it copying is a fruitful endeavour, but it will not break any new ground. It is my hope that people here will strive to conjure new and glourius things – which heretofor we did not see.

    In no way did I put down this special cuben quilt, I didn't even bring it up. I am on no agenda to offend popular people here. And though I have no long storied history (here), that should not automatically discredit me.

    The guys and gals who made Steripen would like a word with all creative naysayers.

    I'm trying to remind people to temper their process with their own creative mojo. Some perceive this as me damning their efforts – a self chosen stance and let it be known I never intended for affected parties to think that.

    Remember! I'm coming from the knockoff side of the fence. My first post here was a whine about silnylon tarps or something. Though it is valuable to see current art, by doing so you permanently lose your original thought. All future thinkings will incorporate that art in some way.

    And I shall not disappoint, in the near future I'll post the following gear stuffs which i've made:

    Hiking Robe
    Garbage Can pack
    Super simple tarptent
    Shower Nozzle attachment for 2L soda bottle. (which i use instead of platypus). Other attachments include one for a drinking tube and another for a filter element.
    Silnylon rain cover for straw hat
    Adj umbrella mount for shoulder straps.
    hard shelled, foam padded, water resistant, shoulder strap mountable DSLR quickdraw holster.

    I am certain you'll like the 4-5 years ago approach, what with the lousy sewing, material choice, duct tape, etc.. What counts is that they work and I like them, I hope you will too.

    and Nick, but I am already a self made millionare, I do not like the path to my door.

    Happy Trails! Be Happy! This isn't an attack, this is a reminder to think creatively! please.

    #1562604
    En Deizeler
    BPL Member

    @gimpslayer

    http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/49584/2/proj5_report.pdf

    ^ really neat active harness backpack. creates its own electricty. Badass, but needs the UL treatment.

    http://www.aarnpacks.com/sports_science/index.html

    ^ front load counterbalanced packs. Needs the UL treatment, imagine thou, 8 on the back 4 on the front? Feel like nothing i'd bet.

    #1562612
    Spruce Goose
    Member

    @sprucegoose

    Locale: New England

    >>I am so happy that this has seen as much activity as it has.<<

    This much, I am sure of.

    Until the GimpSlayer provides more detail on these wonderful innovations, I'll take this thread for what it is…chaff.

    #1562614
    t.darrah
    BPL Member

    @thomdarrah

    Locale: Southern Oregon

    Chaff +1

    #1562620
    Diplomatic Mike
    Member

    @mikefaedundee

    Locale: Under a bush in Scotland

    Anyone want to buy some magic mushrooms?

    #1562641
    Charles Grier
    BPL Member

    @rincon

    Locale: Desert Southwest

    I am pretty sure that, because of his narrow perspective, Gimpslayer is missing an important point. That point being; not everyone is all that interested in gear.

    I am sure that there are many on this forum (including me) who see gear as a means to an end rather than as an end in its own right. For us "non-gearheads", gear can be more of a distraction from our goals than it is the focus of our efforts.

    To many, making ones own gear provides nothing more than a pleasant, economical, hobby and a feeling of satisfaction from using home made gear; regardless of whether it is innovative, self-designed or made from plans or kits. That is not to say that those you dismiss as "groupthinkers" are not innovative, rather, they may be innovative in spheres that you are ignoring.

    So, because of their different orientation, many hikers obtain gear that simply meets their needs and weight and budget limitations and are generally tolerant of minor design flaws or an extra gram here or there. I am sure you do the same thing with automobiles; no need to innovate your own when a perfectly satisfactory version is easily obtainable. Most of us "non-gear-heads" in the lightweight hiking community appreciate light gear and applaud those who design it. But, gear is not the purpose of our trips, rather, it provides the means to accomplish them.

    So, please, in the future, do not paint with such a broad and critical brush. It makes you sound narrow, arrogant, prideful, dismissive and smug. I am sure that you are none of these things and am further sure that you do not wish to appear that way.

    #1562649
    simon hackett
    Member

    @minimalgear

    Locale: UK

    don't the myog forums develop projects further in a ' but wait-haven't you tried….' type way rather than limiting creativity? I've seen plenty of examples of people pushing each other forward. The difference from the older threads is that people seem to be using more sophisticated techniques and materials rather than 'bodging' with duct tape. it makes sense for people to ask opinions of others on particular skills that they may not have. (bonding cuben fibre etc) You come up with an idea which may be beyond your skill set to realise and then research it. Is this not what inventors have always done? there are also plenty of people who just want to make x rather than coming up with innovative new design which is fair enough?

    #1562658
    Adam Rothermich
    BPL Member

    @aroth87

    Locale: Missouri Ozarks

    I'm just a gear tinkerer as well. I don't make my own gear as a creative outlet or to advance backpacking gear to the next level. I modify the gear I have or use available designs to make my own because I'm too poor to afford the real deal. Not to mention I don't have the time or inclination (or cash) to go through 3 or 4 revisions of something I make.

    And who cares if someone posts their completed jacket kit from thru-hiker in the MYOG section? I know that I was proud as all get out when I completed mine and it felt great to share it. Where's the point in putting down those of us who just want to make a kit to save money or get a little more understanding of the gear we use? Even a kit is a huge leap in creativity compared to a traditional backpacker buying everything off the shelf.

    Adam

    #1562663
    Dave T
    Member

    @davet

    .

    #1562714
    En Deizeler
    BPL Member

    @gimpslayer

    Nobody has any thoughts on that wicked awesome Active Harness pack? Or the slept on Front n Back packs?

    I swear, this place is hostile! I'm just a messenger. YOU interpret it as an attack, or that I'm dictating What you Should Do. Relax. have Fun, be happy. OMG DID HE JUST TELL ME BE HAPPY RABBLE RABBLE>!!

    #1562720
    BlackHatGuy
    Spectator

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    "I swear, this place is hostile! I'm just a messenger."

    Hi En,

    I think you'd do well to read Charles' post, 4 posts up, and Dave T's post, right above yours. Dave does a good job of rather politely telling you why you got the reactions you did — "and you got lots of response to your thread, not because you "got your message across", but because you came into a nice little friendly enclave on the internet where people are generally nice and helpful, and starting telling people (brusquely) that people "don't think for themselves", they "weakly run for help", that better stuff won't be made "by you", that tim is wallowing in a "negativity mire", etc."

    Perhaps, if you think on it a bit, you'll realize that you started out a bit 'hostile,' not the group. They/we just took the hostility and ran with it! ;-)

    We're not hostile, we're human. You could have presented much the same message, but done so in a non-badgering, non-arrogant way, and you probably would have had a number of "yes I agree" type answers.

    Remember, the burden of ensuring your message gets across is on you (or, more generally, the sender). It's not the receiver's job to ensure you're communicating correctly.

    So, I'll +1 what Dave said near the end of his message – "even though there is a message in all this that lots of us would agree with, i "beseech" you to work on your delivery."

    From my experience, most folks on this site forgive and forget quickly, as long as you don't continue to present your opinion as fact, and as the only correct way to do something. HYOH, LYOL, MYOGHYW, DBAA.

    FWIW.

    #1562758
    Lynn Tramper
    Member

    @retropump

    Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna

    There are as many reasons for folks undertaking MYOG as there are folk undertaking MYOG. I first started MYOG around 30 years ago due to lack of money. If I'm making something just to save money, I don't want to tinker or risk screwing it up. I just want it to come together without glitches and do it's job. If only we had the internet in those days! Now I do MYOG to make things that can't be bought, be it the world's lightest sleeping bag, or the world's strongest UL tent. Again, I could design from scratch, but when we have folks on board like engineer Roger C, who has made many iterations and improvements on his designs over the years (and tested them thoroughly), I (who knows nothing about engineering and wind dynamics, snow-loading theories etc…) would be an idiot to go it alone. If there was a Roger C tent kit available, I would buy it! However, in all cases I make modifications that suit my own needs and uses, so sometimes gear evolves in incremental stages thanks to group effort. I would venture to say that most of our culture and knowledge comes from this incremental method rather than sheer blind inspiration and AHA moments. There is plenty of room for both in MYOG. This is really not an area that should be subject to contention.

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