UL with a gun?

Dean, I have a feeling Ryan might be planning something that might try and prove you wrong. (I have no inside knowledge and don't know him, just a hunch.)

But my other point is, even assuming someone couldn't completely rely on bagging extra game for the pot, could we suppose that the ability and the effort undertaken for people with a spiritual connection to hunting might enrich the experience for them, even if they do only harvest minimal game?

That doesn't seem worthless to me. And after all, some would argue that going for long walks is pointless anyway.

"That doesn't seem worthless to me. And after all, some would argue that going for long walks is pointless anyway."

Going for long walks is completely pointless.

That's the point!

John, Douglas, thank you for your sanity and reasoned words… Pleasant in the midst of the fray, as it were…

Oh, and just to add in a bit on separation of church and state… 'cause hey, why stay on topic…

Another early user of the term was James Madison, the principal drafter of the United States Bill of Rights. In a recorded conversation surrounding the meaning of the 1st Amendment being offered the following was said:

August 15, 1789. Mr. [Peter] Sylvester [of New York] had some doubts…He feared it [the First Amendment] might be thought to have a tendency to abolish religion altogether…Mr. [Elbridge] Gerry [of Massachusetts] said it would read better if it was that "no religious doctrine shall be established by law."…Mr. [James] Madison [of Virginia] said he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that "Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law."…[T]he State…seemed to entertain an opinion that under the clause of the Constitution…it enabled them [Congress] to make laws of such a nature as might…establish a national religion; to prevent these effects he presumed the amendment was intended…Mr. Madison thought if the word "National" was inserted before religion, it would satisfy the minds of honorable gentlemen…He thought if the word "national" was introduced, it would point the amendment directly to the object it was intended to prevent.[33]

From Wiki…

>How DARE you get this thread back on topic!

My sincere apologies. :)

I have similar perceptions about how plentiful game is. My understanding is that, if anything, fishing is more likely to provide sustenance. I do hope that RJ or someone else with the skills gives this a try. If there are places where it can be done, this would make an interesting read.

Is it just me, or would not the ultimate adventure be leaving for a long walk in true wilderness with a light pack and ZERO weight in consumables? Maybe this would only be possible in a handful of places at a one or two times a year (migration?) but it would be really, really cool.

I have had conversations with a number of subsistence hunters in western Alaska about the feasibility of relying on small – or medium sized – game as a source of food on a long trek. Most of the people I spoke with have a hard time with the idea of walking — though they are less mocking about kayaking — over riding a snow machine or four wheeler, but that aside they didn’t think one would be able to make much progress relying on land animals. Birds would work as would seals along the coast, but it takes a lot of time.

A number of years ago I helped train, as sea-kayaking guides, two men from Iqaluit on Baffin Island. We spent a month in and around York Sound in Frobisher Bay, and they were able to supply seal as a primary protein source for much of that time. They were very good hunters; I doubt that I would have been able to survive even if it were legal for me to hunt a seal, which it isn’t in Alaska or Canada. A .22 wouldn’t be my weapon of choice for birds or seals.

"all my feigned righteous and anachronistic upset-ness is currently focused on the troops that are attempting to quarter in my apartment."

My condolences. As you can see, you've missed a great opportunity, and I've missed a few laughs. But don't worry, this will still be going on when you free up. ;}

"i {heart} the bill of rights."

Me, too, and I've been a trifle concerned of late. But let's not go there now. That can wait until it's the dead of winter and everybody's bored out of their skulls.

I just wanted to say that the point of the Pak-Rifle is distinctly not subsistence. It is for mild supplementation and enhancement of experience. As I said in an earlier thread, this little thing only weighs a pound. On longer trips I eat 2 pounds of food a day. So the rifle itself is half of one day's food. If I'm out for 2 weeks, then, and only kill one squirrel, the rifle weight "paid" for itself. In the areas I frequent, you'd almost have to try NOT to find small game. And if you're not focused entirely on mileage, and wanted to explore the land a little more, it'd be a fine thing to actively hunt… just as many backpackers or canoe trippers go fishing when they reach camp in the late afternoon. Incidentally, if I pack one less meal for two weeks, and somehow failed to shoot one small game animal in that time period, I would hardly starve.

"If I…only kill one squirrel, the rifle weight "paid" for itself."

I'd be very impressed if you can get 16oz of meat off one squirrel :)

"I'd be very impressed if you can get 16oz of meat off one squirrel :)"

Well now Dan, we don't have them scrawny squirrels you have up in Canada down here….. ;-)

Only because we feed ours hormones…

Yeah Dan you need to go to Texas where the squirrels are really big.
I always thought of the PAK rifle as a supplement. If you get a rabbit or grouse every days or so thats a lot of extra food over time, if hunting is bad you come home early.
I too am hoping Ryan or someone with more skills (and time) will give this a try and let us all know how it works.

Dean I've enjoyed all your comments in this thread but having grown up in the a part of this country where "A Country Boy Can Survive" is almost considered the National Athem, I know a lot of people who'd disagree that you can't live off the land with nothing more than a good knife, some fishing line, duct tape & a .22. Hell, even having moved up here to the land of Yankees, I still can't go for a walk without wading through goose droppins' or having squirrels constantly barking at me.
And hey, with the current state of the economy it might be in all our best interests to bone up on those "country boy" skills.
I would rather have a .410 for sustenance though. I got my first when I was 14 years old and went out one afternoon and got 8 squirrels. My father had a (good) rule that we ate what we killed, so after having to clean all 8, and eating greasy squirrel for 3 nights straight, I switched to the more challenging .22 and never had the problem of too much meat again.
Devin, I'm an avid fisherman, not so much a hunter these days, but I'm still more likely to be skunked fishing than hunting small game. I suspect that in many parts of the country the real problem with going on that long walk and trying to live off what you take hunting would be the legality of doing so. I'd be very interested to know of established trails where you could hike for a week and legally hunt the entire distance.

>> I know a lot of people who'd disagree that you can't live off the land with nothing more than a good knife, some fishing line, duct tape & a .22.

But can you make decent mileage and keep to your schedule while you do it?

And as I said, I just may be a lousy hunter. Or, more likely, since the only regions I've hunted in were western Pennsylvania all of my experiences may have just been in scantily stocked areas.

AND… I am just traditional enough on this issue to prefer my rifles elegantly made, of iron and wood. (I hate ARs, too.)

:o)

Ah, now the crux of the problem, making "good" time and keeping our to the all important schedule :-). I get your point Dean, and truth be known, I prefer hot dogs to rodents anyway. I just find it ironic that we've all become so civilized and domesticated that we've largely forgotten how to feed ourselves. I can't imagine my grandfathers having this same conversation. Of course, when they went in the woods it was precisely to feed themselves.

Oh, good lord, guys… you even expect literal mass in grams on possible food weight gained from hunting? Please… nope, never weighed one. Just eat them. One is plenty for a meal for myself. Consider it the main meal of the day, and I figure it's about half the day's food weight. Whatever. You get the point, I'd hope… :)

How many of you fish? Do you do it mainly for subsistence food, or because you enjoy it and it adds a little to your diet?

It's called fishing, not catching Hunting, not meat on the table. How long of a trip would you need to take to make up for the weight of the rifle, and how much food would you be willing to gamble, on what is supposed to be a vacation not a survival situation? It's a gamble.

Yeah, I have gone back and forth on both a fishing kit and a hunting kit for my AZT thru hike starting in March. Here's where I'm at right now:

Fishing Kit: This is only useful in times where I'm not moving (ie at camp or on a zero day) therefore I may bring the most basic (hook, line, sinker, and bobber) kit to add extra activity to our trip, and if I don't use it, and find the 1.5 ounces too much, I won't feel bad tossing it in the trash at a trail town.

Hunting Kit: I can use this while on the move. Have a .22 pistol with first round of snake shot and the rest regular loads. This allows me to at least wing a bird or hit a smaller animal on the move out to about 25 or 30 feet and then throw lead further if I need to. I'm still undecided on holster/no holster as to the extra weight, I think I'll just carry it in the side pocket of my pack where I can reach it if I need to but the common hiker passing by wont think I'm trying to be Rambo with a gun on my hip.

I will probably carry a extra small stuff sack in the pocket with the pistol and upon a kill, I'll quickly field dress the animal, throw it in the stuff sack and continue on to camp where I can enjoy the fresh meat.

Any thoughts/ideas on what I'm hoping to do? Please don't respond if your blood pressure raised while you read this, I don't want to defend what is legal

For years, before I quit fishing, I supplemented my diet with fish on trips up to 17 days in the Sierra. It can definitely be done. I also used to hunt, but gave it up long ago, the point being I know what it takes to find, kill, dress out and prepare game and am thus qualified to at least offer an opinion. I think, in the context of trekking fishing is the better option whenever fishing is an option. It will usually be less time consuming, IME, less problematic in that you do not have to worry about where your round will carry or whether there are other people around to freak out, etc., equipment is lighter, there are far more places where you can fish that are also prime hiking venues. Probably more reasons but these should be enough to get my point across.

One of the advantages of fishing for food vs hunting for food while hiking is that the fish are confined to a small, easily located environment, while grouse, squirrels, rabbits and other small game are much more widely distributed, and thus usually harder to locate.

Second, when we fish, we attract the fish to our hook; when we hunt, we have to go find the prey ourselves.

Very different food gathering techniques!

Tom,

Agree on the fishing. Actually in the 1960's (for me) it was possible to make trout a mainstay of your diet in many parts of the Sierras. This is no longer true.

"Actually in the 1960's (for me) it was possible to make trout a mainstay of your diet in many parts of the Sierras. This is no longer true."

So true, Nick. There are still a few places where there a lot of fish(I don't fish anymore, but I enjoy watching them), but they're a lot fewer and farther between.
BTW, did you ever get to Crabtree Lakes back in the day?

Tom,

Back in the day… you mean the days before back country permits and hordes of people? Like hiking up Whitney with no permit required? Yep.

When I was young and had no responsibilities or bills, I often would start at Kernville and go up to the Whitney area. Of course I would have to make it down to Horsehoe Meadows and hitch a ride down into Lone Pine for supplies. Then it was back up to Horsehoe Meadow-to-Whitney (I think this is where I would hit the crabtree lakes) and then and a return trip to Kernville. I think I have been at nearly every lake and stream on the Kern Plateau and Whitney area. And of course this is the area I was referring to with my "trout was a mainstay" comment. I don't fish much anymore either.

However around 1970 I caught 5 species of trout one afternoon below the Forks of the Kern. Rainbow, German Brown, Brook, Golden, and a Kokane Salmon. Didn't know what the Kokanee was, so I hauled it around for a couple of days until a ranger on horseback identified it for me.

I miss those days.

"Back in the day… you mean the days before back country permits and hordes of people? Like hiking up Whitney with no permit required? Yep.

Yep.

Sounds like our territories have quite a bit of overlap. I didn't get down in the Kern south of Rattlesnake Creek, but doggone near everywhere north of there on up to Volcano Lakes on the north side of the road going to Roads End.

Yeah, if you went from Horseshoe Meadow to Whitney, you probably would've gone via Sky Blue Lake and Crabtree Pass at least to Upper Crabtree Lake before heading up that awesome scree slope to pop onto the main trail just east of Trail Crest Pass. The best fishing, though, was at Middle Crabtree Lake. Some of the best I've ever found. It was easy to live off fishing there, ditto the entire Upper Kern Basin back then.

To this day I wouldn't know a Kokanee if I saw one. 5 species in one day-that must have been quite an experience.

I miss those days too. Never had it better in the Sierra.

I'm glad Ryan had the guts to pursue a test that would end up being so controversial. I believe it was an appropriate addition to this website. Interesting, informative and very well done. Since I am now primarily a bowhunter, maybe I'll submit an article about backpacking with a lightweight longbow.

How much would a long bow and a couple of arrows weigh?