UL with a gun?

Hi Mark,

I didn't infer anything. I didn't suggest that you are advocating one religion over another. You said "Like it or not, America was founded by Christians for the primary purpose of being able to pursue a religious life free of persecution." My post simply posits that perhaps some of our founders were not christians (though deists, certainly). I then added that some were definitely christians, mr. henry among them.

So I probably didn't word it as well as I could have, I was simply saying that as you wrote (American was founded by christians), some founders also believed.

Nor was I trying to 'disprove' your thesis of religion being part of our history and culture. That's simply a fact, I agree completely. Now whether or not it was a positive part of our history or culture is, of course, a completely different matter! And one for a different thread on a different site altogether!

Take care,

Doug

From the pic, I assume he caught them as they jumped. Quite the marksanimal, knew all about leading them…

>>>I am trying to state historical fact.<<<

Well then you might want to revise the following statement:

>>>The founding fathers left more than enough examples that the separation of God and State was NOT their intent.<<<

The historical record shows the founding fathers went out of their way to make it abundently clear that the seperation of church/God and State was absolutely their intent.

And yes, the majority of the founding fathers were Christians. But many of them were Christians in the same way I'm a Christian. I was baptized as a child and attended services for much of my young life, but have never really been devout and question much about organized religion.

Sure, many of them were devout and practicing Chrisitians too. But even most of the devout ones felt strongly about nox mixing church and State.

Well, if any carrier is interested, I have a shameless piece of promotion for a buddy of mine. He runs a bonafide COTTAGE business making pistol holsters. They fit well, are very functional, are excellent quality, can be somewhat customized for your fit or material choices, and they are much CHEAPER than the big name brands. PM me for details.

Just out of curiosity, are there not any law enforcement or security types on this forum?

Even if most of the Founding Fathers were Christians, I will fight viciously to prevent the U.S. from becoming some farcical Evangelical version of theocracies like Iran. As I said, I'm a BIG Bill of Rights guy…

+1 on many Founding Fathers being deists, but not "qualifying" as Christians by the definition of modern Evangelicals. Many belived that Jesus Christ was a human, and not a god. Heck, Jefferson had the audacity to edit all the "magic and nonsense" (his words) out of the Bible! He wanted an edition that just stuck to the facts, and the actual words that Jesus Christ spoke. Google "Jefferson Bible." Read "The Faiths of Our Fathers" by Mapp. As a modestly spiritual but absolutely non-religious person (if that makes any sense), I found it fascinating.

P.S. I realized the futility of continuing my previous post. And Dave certainly lived up to my expectations by slinging snappy abrasive witticisms rather than actually saying anything of consequence, then declaring his intention to leave the thread. (And, I'll bet you a MILLION DOLLARS that the teenager who pulled a guy in that back yard was NOT carrying it legally.) Have a nice day, all. Even you nutty liberals and wild-eyed conservatives… :o)

Dean – when you are one and there are many and you don't have a gun it makes sense to leave the thread. You know, don't carry a knife to a gun fight even if the gun holders are 'trained.'

As far as anything of consequence, I would like someone to provide data to me that a safer nation is one with which it's citizens have the right to bear arms? What stikes me as odd is that after 4 pages of posts, no one has answered my original question. In addition, I would add that you instantly brought into play partisan politics which, I expect from you, but which I choose not to participate for fear of discussions about church and state. Ooops, that already happened.

So if I carry a gun can I prevent Global Warming and / or can I end Climategate?

I'm not a paranoid type, but if trouble comes to my home, I'm not waiting an hour for the sheriff's department to arrive.

"What strikes me as odd is that after 4 pages of posts, no one has answered my original question."

Oh, I think many have tried.
You just don't like the answers.

Poor dead horse.

Tom:

I believe this sums up your feelings.

Lynn:

For your Mom:

>> Dean – when you are one and there are many and you don't have a gun it makes sense to leave the thread.

Well, my past experience here indicates that you are NOT "one among many" who oppose your view. I think quite a few BPL posters are sympathetic to your position, in fact, though likely still a (large) minority. They are just content for the moment to let you field the discussion. There are a lot of gun-toting rednecks hereabouts who haven't commented yet, either… :o)

And to clarify (and maybe appologize), the snipe about you leaving the thread wasn't a snipe about you leaving the thread, per se. It was a comment on people who simply MUST get the last word in, then leave so no one else can respond to what they said. I find that cowardly and puerile, and I now don't think that was what you were doing.

Instead, when the discussion becomes futile, I ususally wright something about how we disagree and that I'm willing to leave it at that, perhaps with a summary of my root points without bringing up anything new, and that I'll now stop pounding my head against the wall (or something like that).

And, of course, like me (or Rog), you can't seem to back down to save your life, so the mudslinging continues…

Big hug.

:o)

P.S. The only way to stop Global Warming with a gun would be to start shooting neo-cons. As fulfilling as that might be, and despite the exquisite irony, I can't endorse it. :o)

David I am soooo glad you asked the best question yet: do gun rights reduce crime?

I give you London, beautiful London.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1950860/the_uk_gun_ban.html

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns. Yes cliche, but for a reason.

True to a point, but I'm not sure it's a direct relationship.

I don't think that Americans have a gun problem. I think we have a VIOLENCE problem.

In this respect, I guess I agree with ONE of Michael Moore's points. (SHUDDER!)

After all there are countries with much more restrictive guns laws than us but which are nonetheless very violent and over-run with guns. (A good chunk of Central and South America, comes to mind.) OTOH there are countries where gun ownership is almost mandatory, and yet are much less violent than us. (Switzerland, Finland, etc.)

Americans are just plain violent, there is no escaping it. (I think we may get this from our English heritage- a country where pub fighting is the national past-time.) We like to claim that it is RIGHTEOUS violence, but obviously that isn't the case. I do find it immoral to try to tell someone that he can't defend himself, though. And guns are an equalizer- the buggest guy doesn't automatically win. It keeps people polite. One doesn't start a bar fight in the United States lightly… I think every feminist should be a gun proponent, because any average male can kill any average female with his bare hands in about 30 seconds.

Anyway, as a society I think we Americans need to address this violent streak. I find the Hollywood liberals to be INCREDIBLY hippocritical when they endorse a general gun ban but continue to glamorize senseless violence. And their insistence that watching this crap doesn't somehow warp children is an insult to my intelligence. I resent the large amount of "creep" in the movie rating system over the years, for instance.

But, they are a big lobby with deep pockets…

"So if I carry a gun can I prevent Global Warming and / or can I end Climategate?"

seriously?

"What strikes me as odd is that after 4 pages of posts, no one has answered my original question."

I already posted a study that answers your questions.

Here is another you can download with info
drawn from many sources.

http://www.gunfacts.info/

In the end, your world view (religion, gun ownership,
environmentalism etc.) is shaped by your experience.

For those that say there can be no conversion, this is not
correct. Personal testimony can overcome much.

When I have taken even the most strident people target
shooting, that most often has changed many of their opinions. It is not a sudden process tho.

Excerpts from the section on Britain-

"Myth: Britain has strict gun control and a low crime
rate
Fact: Since gun banning has escalated in the UK, the rate of crime – especially violent
crime – has
risen.

Fact: Comparing crime rates between America and Britain is flawed. In America, a gun
crime is recorded as a gun crime. In Britain, a crime is only recorded when there is a final
disposition (a conviction). All unsolved gun crimes in Britain are not reported as gun
crimes, grossly undercounting the amount of gun crime there.51 To make matters worse,
British law enforcement has been exposed for falsifying criminal reports to create falsely
lower crime figures, in part to preserve tourism.

Fact: Ironically,
firearm use in
crimes has
doubled in the
decade since
handguns were
banned.46

Fact: Street robberies soared 28% in 2001. Violent crime was up 11%, murders up 4%,
and rapes are up 14%.48

Fact: This trend continues in 2004 with a 10% increase in street crime, 8% increase in
muggings, and a 22% increase in robberies.

Fact: In 1919, before they had any gun
control, the U.K. had a
homicide rate that was
8% of the U.S. rate. By
1986, and after enacting
significant gun control,
the rate was 9% –
practically
unchanged.49

-40 Targeting Guns, Gary Kleck, Aldine Transaction, 1997, at 360.
41 Juristat: Crime Statistics in Canada, 2004 and FBI Uniform Crime Statistics online.
42 Criminal Victimization in Seventeen Industrialized Countries, Dutch Ministry of Justice, 2001.
43 A Comparison of Violent and Firearm Crime Rates in the Canadian Prairie Provinces and Four U.S.
Border States, 1961-2003, Parliamentary Research Branch of the Library of Parliament, March 7, 2005.
44 National Report by Finland, United Nations Office for Disarmament Affairs.
45 Pekka-Eric Auvinen shooting in Tuusula, Finland on November 8, 2007.
46 Weapons sell for just £50 as suspects and victims grow ever younger, The Times, August 24, 2007.
U.K. Violent Crime and Firearm Ownership

47 YouGov survey of 2,156 residents in Sept 2007.
48 British Home Office, reported by BBC news, July 12, 2002.
49 Targeting Guns, Gary Kleck, Aldine Transaction, 1997, at 359.
50 Minutes of Evidence, Colin Greenwood, Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs, January 29,
2003.
51 Fear in Britain, Gallant, Hills, Kopel, Independence Institute, July 18, 2000.
52 Crime Figures a Sham, Say Police, Daily Telegraph, April 1, 1996.
53 Reported in The Guardian, September 3, 2000.
U.K. Violent Crime and Firearm Ownership

•There are an estimated 7.4 million firearms in Canada, about 1.2 million of which are restricted firearms (mostly handguns). In the U.S., there are approximately 222 million firearms; 76 million of the firearms in circulation are handguns.
•For 1987-96, on average, 65% of homicides in the U.S. involved firearms, compared to 32% for Canada
•For 1987-96, the average firearm homicide rate was 5.7 per 100,000 in the U.S., compared to 0.7 per 100,000 for Canada.
•For 1989-95, the average handgun homicide rate was 4.8 per 100,000 in the U.S., compared to 0.3 per 100,000 for Canada. Handguns were involved in more than half (52%) of the homicides in the U.S., compared to 14% in Canada.
•For 1989-95, the average non-firearm homicide rate was 3.1 per 100,000 people in the U.S., compared to 1.6 per 100,000 for Canada.

So the solution, it appears, is that for Americans to have a gun to protect themselves from criminals with a gun. Seems to me that there are some inherent issues with your legal system and / or the ease of which people can get guns.

Discuss amoung yourselves.

I am thrilled to have been chosen as the poster boy target for gun owners. I can even accept the snide remarks. And no, I was not serious about Climategate. If Dean can write 'tongue in cheek' I believe I can as well. The point is that we will not resolve this issue as there are statistics on both sides, like Global Warming.

Craig – why is the horse dead – did your gun go off mistakenly?

I think this might be a great name for a new line
of eco-friendly carabiners.

"Craig – why is the horse dead – did your gun go off mistakenly?"

just let a loud laugh go… thats funny!

this is just my .02 here… but having discussions like this really help the work day go by.

David – I am guessing you became the target because you are the most willing to defend your position on the subject.

Good Day.

I'm a vegetarian socialist who has no problem at all with the review. Leave No Trace is all well and good until you consider that most of the mass-produced foods you can bring with you have a far greater negative impact on the environment than the complete usage of one or two non-endangered animals who led a free life up until being eaten by you.

If you're only bringing local organic fresh produce on your hike, then you might have the slight ethical upper hand, but even then I'm not sure.

I keep a loaded Glock in every room of my house so I can "light up intruders like a Christmas tree". All the guns are also handy in case I feel like spontaneously dressing up my wife in something sexy and making her pose with guns so I can post pictures all over internet forums.
I'm sorry, I digress.
I get an average of 3-4 intruders a week these days. Annoying. Why can't I live in Canada?
Anyhow, it was actually my six year old that found the gun and shot the horse. I just finished spackling the bullet holes in the neighbor's porch.

Hey, at least my kid didn't get the AR-15 in the hall closet.

Poor, poor, dead horse.

"David – I am guessing you became the target because you are the most willing to defend your position on the subject."

Regrettably so. ;)

Remind me not to startle Craig. Ever.

My wife and I are going to set out on the Arizona Trail in March and I have gone back and forth on carrying my .22 pistol. I want to, in hopes that I can supplement our food and reduce consumable weight. Anyone know of any thru hikers that have done this?

I think Dean raises a good point with his post that gun ownership/rights etc. and crime rates aren't necessarily related. I'm skeptical of any comparisons whether I agree with them or not because there are so many variables involved besides guns.
Lets suppose for example that we suddenly loosened up all the gun laws in the UK for example. Anyone without a criminal record would be free to buy, own and carry guns at will. I'm sure a few dirt bags would get shot but how many people want to carry a gun around for self defense and how many idiots would all of a sudden decide that murder was a good idea? In the big picture I doubt there would be a statistically significant change in overall crime.
For my counter example suppose friendly aliens landed and magically eliminated ALL the privately owned guns in America. That would make it hard for some 110 pound guy to commit murder but the counter example would be that he could also be more easily victomized by some 240 pound hulk. The quesiont is would the majority of violent people in society all of a sudden become law abiding? Again I doubt it.
I think the problem is a lot bigger and more complicated than guns one way or the other.

Brady, I think your question hits on the really interesting topic here. Can the gathering of indigenous food sources (game, fish, plants) be effectively incorporated into backcountry travel? Other than the odd blueberry or fish diner that one might enjoy, I haven't seen this done to any large degree. Maybe it would simply take too much time, but this was the way that people used to travel. There is a certain primal appeal to this kind of journey, and while I lack the skills and wherewithal to do it, I would love to read about someone who has.

Devin-

How DARE you get this thread back on topic!

Actually, I think the original review thread would be the place for discussing hunting to suppliment food while hiking. This thread was specifically started to discuss the stuff Ryan didn't want clogging up the review.

I think.

Which is sort of why I'm willing to break my normal policy of not getting into these discussions…

But, since you ask, on a much older thread mentioning this rifle I called it "pretty useless." After some thought I stick by that assessment. There are few places (in the US at least) that are still as lousy with game as they were back in the early nineteenth century when people could feed themselves with a rifle during cross-continental treks, so I'm not convinced that any such supplimentation with this little .22 would justify the 16-oz. (Though the thought of a nice roasted grouse after a week on the trail certainly makes me drool.) I certainly wouldn't want to RELY upon it, at least, and bring less food. I'd stand a good chance of starving.

But I may be wrong. There may be places with plentiful enough game. Or perhaps I just suck at hunting.

And my mindset is simply different when I'm out hiking than it was when I was hunting. (I haven't hunted in over a decade.) I'd be more likely to think of taking a photo of that jackrabbit than I would be to think of eating it.

I also don't think it makes sense to carry it "in case" you get lost and run out of food. Don't get lost, or carry a PLB. And if you're an Alaskan bush pilot and need a true survival weapon I think a 12g shotgun is MUCH more utilitarian and multi-purpose, and justifies the weight. You don't need to get within 15 yards to get birds- shoot them on the wing. Squirrels fall like rain. Slugs take deer or elk. And it'll sure keep the bears at bay better than a .22. Etc.

I MIGHT get behind a .410 version a bit more- but it would of course be much heavier.

My $0.02.

EDIT–

I JUST CAN'T WAIT for people to get home from work and jump all over this thread! :o)