Best Stove for use with Puncture Canister

Does this qualify as a fireball?

This was taken by my daughter (amid some hysterical laughter) when I fired up my brand new Optimus stove back in 2005. I had intended to test it before we left but, because of the time it took to pack the 65+ lbs of gear in my ArcTeryx Bora 80 pack (hey – if it fit I took it), I didn't have the time.

It's scary what I've learned since that trip (it was my first backpacking trip in 20 years). Water? We each carried four liters on a hike that crossed a stream every two miles. Fuel for the "fireball"? Two full 1-liter fuel bottles of white gas!!! I didn't know how much fuel we'd need on our 3-night trip and didn't want to run out.

I'm sure many of you have similar stories, but the fireball thread reminded me of this photo. I've never had a fireball with my Caldera Cone and 12-10 stove. The Optimus? In the car camping box for when I need a third burner when cooking dinner.

I like fire starting paste. I think this is a gelled alcohol. Since I discovered it, not many fireballs on my SVEA 123, or two generations of Optimus (now Nova). I've been trying liquid alcohol for priming on my Optimus Nova. My new Nova works fine with kerosene. The pre-Nova Optimus multifuel stove could also burn alcohol, but I never tried it.

Kevin:
Nice photo. Thanks for sharing. The expression — this does not look like a pyrophobe. Somewhat amusing that she was ready with camera sensing that your new stove might be a Kodak moment.

Thanks – Since she knew it was the first time I used the stove she had the camera ready – more as a joke than anything, but it certainly gave us a photo to remember.

It's pyrophobe here again. Thanks for the scoop on the stoves. Beginning to get the point.

Now, for the pot. Currently only used canister stove w snow peak titanium solo (3/4 L maybe). PM and AM usually end up heating of 3-4 loads of water. (I prefer to mix sport drinks etc with hot water — keeps me warm.)

Going to want a pot with a larger diameter to sit on this stove. No? Thinking of going with a 2.4-ish L pot. Once you get this stove going, think you'd want to get all your water boiled for a while? Good size for snow too — while this isn't an issue for me at the moment, if you're going to spend more on the pot than the stove, might as well be thinking about what you're going to use it for next. Seems like a big pot for a solo traveler.

Ideas?

I believe the MSR Whisperlite Internationale also has a wick of sorts. You would definitely want the Internationale version not the "plain" version.

I usually prime my stove with "meths" (methylated or denatured alcohol), but I understand that you can prime your stove with a bic lighter by applying the flame to the pre-heating tube. Roger, any comments on that technique?

Priming isn't that bad. The poster a couple of posts back has it right: Don't pump it 100% at first, and just let a very small amount of fuel flow into the priming cup. Light the fuel, let it burn out, and then pump up fully, re-light, and let 'er rip.

I generally open my valve slightly until I hear a little a little fuel coming out and close the valve before I see the fuel. If I don't get enough, I can always open the valve again. Just a tiny bit of fuel in the priming cup is needed. No harm in too little fuel; possibly great harm (or at least an unpleasant scare) if too much fuel.

I've got the "plain" version Whisperlite myself, but I imagine the Internationale version would work similarly, even with kero (aka "Paraffin").

A 2.4L pot seems way too large. I don't normally bring that unless I'm with a group of 4 or more or if I have to melt snow.

The Whisperlite I have works just fine with my 1/2 (3/4?) liter pot.

My pot is wider than it is tall by the way.

Hi Jim

Metho or priming paste is the only decent way to get a kero stove going. A small dropper bottle of metho is far cheaper though. Only a litle is needed in the priming cup.

Do you need metho for petrol (white gas)? Not in hot weather – the fuel is quite volatile. I just dribble a wee bit of petrol out the jet (*exactly* as you describe) and then turn the jet OFF before I light. I open the valve very gently as flame dies down. In cold weather a bit of metho doesn't hurt.

Trying to heat the preheat tube with a Bic lighter is certainly possible, but it sure uses up the butane in the lighter. And can scorch fingers some times! I prefer the metho approach.

Cheers

Hi Hartley

Frankly, I would hesitate about the 2.4 L pot. It's huge relative to what you need, and could even cause heat reflection problems as I described. I use a 1.5 L MSR Titan pot for two people, even in the snow, and I find it easily big enough. Yep, even for melting snow.

Cheers

"The trick is to not pump up the pressure too high initially, then open the valve just a teeny bit, and bleed perhaps a millimeter or so of fuel into the pan. It doesn't take much to warm the tube up enough to vaporize the gas. You can pump the stove up to operating pressure once it's lit."

Spot on, and very easy really.
I just put two pumpstrokes of pressure in initially, so the fuel just dribbles into the priming cup rather than spraying at high pressure when I open the valve.

G'day Roger:

That's what I'll do. :) I was just thinking once you get that thing fired up, you would want to boil all the water you need. Which for me is A LOT. I do NOT drink cold water. I like to put warm water in my platy too. I will order the 1.5 ish litre one…I think.

Now to decide on fuel container capacity –the guy on one of the better youtube vids I watched said that the small (?11fl oz) MSR container will last him 3 days. Didn't say what he was cooking, where he was doing it or WHAT he had in the tank. I'm sure there are charts re: fuel efficiency somewhere on this site or elsewhere. Haven't checked tank prices yet. Hopefully, they will be cheaper than the pot!

So 1.5 it is. I suppose the stove doesn't fit in the pot? :(

Sounds like you go through a lot more hot water than most of us… think of pot volume in terms of how much water you actually want to heat at once. Are you going to fill a couple of quart/liter bottles with hot water (or the equivalent)? If you really want to have that much hot water, I'd go for the bigger pot. There isn't a huge weight penalty for the bigger pot(~2.5 ounces between Evernew 1.3 & 2L, for example), and it'll make life easier and more streamlined.

That said, your fuel requirements also sound high. I'm one of the "piggiest" eaters here, and I boil about 3 pints per day. Sounds like you're talking more around 3 quarts… which is fine if that's what makes you happy, but you'll be hauling a lot of "extra" fuel weight, too. An 11-oz MSR bottle lasting the guy 3 days is probably based on something more like boiling 2 or 3 pints a day…

Thanks Brad!

I get cold fast especially when exhausted and at altitude — hydrating with hot water helps me to keep warm and I am more inclined to drink it if it's not freezing cold. Could I get by with less? YES! Hot water bottles are awesome in the sleeping bag (going to see if a platy works as well). Of course it will be placed in a freezer bag just in case. All part of my staying warm strategy but I am open to change.

2.5 Litre. That was my initial thinking and weight difference is minimal (yes, I realize there are a lot of gram counters here but I'm still and ounce counter). As for my requirements, I currently use the Snow Peak solo titanium set up — I think it's a deep 0.75 L pot which fits the small fuel cartridge and the stove folded into it's little white box. It's a tidy little set up. At dinner and breakfast, I will boil maybe 4 batches of water. With the cartridge stove, doesn't bother me too much but probably more efficient to have bigger pot for that too. (BTW, if anyone cares I make camping meals with about 2-3 times the recommended water — makes like a soup — tastes less salty and of course hydrates.)

It's a toss up, I'm sure as I continue to do this sort of thing, I will have both a 1.5 and 2.5 L pot. I want titanium — so I can use the weight savings to bring stuff like a Kindle — LOL — only partially kidding. (BTW, Kindle International was introduced last week for you guys who don't get ATT reception.) But I'm only going to buy one pot this week!

Thanks everyone. Should probably start doing some route planning instead of deciding between a 1.5 and 2.5 litre pot! Amazing, how carried away we get.

Given that one was going to consume 2.5 L of water at time — wonder wear the break-even point is between the weight of the extra fuel involved in heating two batches and the extra weight of the pot. Probably didn't pose the question well. Roger, is this the kind of science you do? I'm not sure how one would measure this. Seriously procrastinating. :)

So you're boiling (roughly!) 4 x .75L, or 3 Liters of water, for each meal. Guessing that you're not filling the pot up all the way, hence 600ml, perhaps where you got the 2.4L pot volume. A 2L pot would be a good compromise. It might be a good idea to use a bit less hot water for meals… that fuel weight can really start adding up, too. Wide-bottom pots will generally be more fuel efficient…

EDIT: Wowsers! It just hit me that means 6 liters boiled a day, for one person! Quadruple fuel consumption based on numbers others give you as average…

"Don't pump it 100% at first, and just let a very small amount of fuel flow into the priming cup. Light the fuel, let it burn out, and then pump up fully, re-light, and let 'er rip.

I generally open my valve slightly until I hear a little a little fuel coming out and close the valve before I see the fuel. If I don't get enough, I can always open the valve again. Just a tiny bit of fuel in the priming cup is needed. No harm in too little fuel; possibly great harm (or at least an unpleasant scare) if too much fuel."

+1 I wouldn't normally re-post to drive home a point, but this is a serious subject, so I'm going to hit the nail twice.

The MSR user manual says a "soccer ball" sized flame is normal when lighting the fuel in the priming cup. I think this is nuts, frankly. As Jim just pointed out a tiny amount is sufficient. Why go looking for trouble, especially if tired and/or cold at the end of a long day?
My 2 centavos.

Hartley, does all the water you're heating need to get to boiling or can some of it be just warm? 100 degrees C is too hot to drink. Whether it's 50C or 100C can make a big difference in how much fuel you need.

Maybe you should use a heat exchanger pot; check out the article on it by, I think, Roger.

Hi Hartley

> the small (?11fl oz) MSR container will last him 3 days.
I'm sure it would! It would last me a lot longer.

I figure on about 30 g of canister fuel per day for the two of us. (Verified over months of sustained use.) I would almost double that for petrol, especially if you are not experienced with a petrol stove. But are you cooking just for one person? In that case I would use maybe 30 – 40 g of petrol per day – but I am reasonably cautious when it comes to fuel use.

I think you can get at least 300 g of petrol in an 11 fl oz tank – anyone want to verify this? So I would reckon on at least a week out of one 11 oz tank for one person. Yeah – that sounds about right for one person with mildly canny use.

Your biggest problem may be buying a wee bit of UNleaded petrol to fill up your tank. A spare tank might be the smartest move: get it filled when empty and transfer as needed. Note that you NEVER fill a tank completely full in actual use, but filling a spare tank is fine.

Cheers

First of all 11 oz is 0.325 L.

Petrol density 0.75 kg/L

Leaving room in the bottle: assume 0.300 L capacity

0.300 L * 0.75 kg/L = 0.22 kg

Thus ~ 220 grams petrol in 11 oz container?

Maybe better left to the Senior Technology Editor

Roger —

By canister fuel — do you mean the 250 g cartridges?

30 g of canister fuel a day for both or you?

250 g canister/(30 g/day) = 8.4 days for 2 people

Alone, you could get 2+ weeks out of a 250 g cartridge?

You are in a different league!

Hi Hartley

> Alone, you could get 2+ weeks out of a 250 g cartridge?
Basically, yes.

Assessed over several multi-month trips through France, our gas consumption ran slightly better than one 450 g canister per fortnight for the two (wife and me) of us.

Based on records I have kept for 20+ years, I find that the inefficiencies of liquid-fuel stoves means they use between 50% and 75% more fuel than gas. For alcohol it runs at about 150% more at least (ie you use at least 2.5x as much fuel).

Major sources of inefficiencies are the fuel cost of priming (something which rarely gets mentioned in discussions of alkies) and the reluctance of users to switch a petrol stove off once they have got it going. Neither happens with a canister stove. Also, alcohol is a relatively inefficient fuel in energy/weight terms anyhow.

Cheers

This is for James from the way-marking lady's site:

7. Can I get alcohol?
Very few village stores or cafes sell beer or raki; none sell wine or any other alcohol. In general, rural Turks don't drink. Most small towns have a source of beer; you may have to ask. Established tourist areas such as the Koprulu Canyon rafting areas have beer but you may be overcharged. No-one will be offended by you drinking beer if you can find it!

Bummer. Don't know which issue is more serious — beer or fuel?

Got my ticket online a few moments ago :)

Found this interesting as well:

8. How many days' food do I have to carry?
The most you are likely to have to carry is 3 days food on the highest and longest sections. Even there, if you meet shepherds, they will probably offer you food. Even if there is no shop in a village, you can knock on a door and ask for simple food like bread (yufka) and cheese (peynir). Pay for what you take.

Metho or priming paste is the only decent way to get a kero stove going. A small dropper bottle of metho is far cheaper though. Only a litle is needed in the priming cup.

Good info; thanks. Haven't worked with kero much.

Do you need metho for petrol (white gas)? Not in hot weather – the fuel is quite volatile.

Absolutely. I bring a little squirt bottle of meths just because it burns clean (doesn't get soot all over the stove) and it reduces the chance of a fireball.

Trying to heat the preheat tube with a Bic lighter is certainly possible, but it sure uses up the butane in the lighter. I prefer the metho approach.

Agreed. I was just thinking that if meths wasn't available, then perhaps lighters would be and would be a way to prime without risking a fireball.

Now to decide on fuel container capacity.

The MSR bottles come in 11 oz, 20 oz, and 30 oz sizes. As I recall, the bottles can actually hold more than their stated capacities, but you only fill them to the "fill line" indicated on the bottle.

One trick to keep the weight down: "White gas" (a.k.a. Shellite, Coleman Fuel, Naptha, etc.), and I'm assuming unleaded gasoline (Roger? am I correct here?) will generally keep short term in an ordinary PET water bottle. The trick is to find one without a soft plastic seal inside the cap. In other words, you need to find a bottle with a cap all of one piece, all made out of hard plastic.

You get the 11 oz (smallest and lightest) MSR tank to actually use for operating the stove and carry the remainder of your fuel in a PET bottle. Cuts down the weight of the aluminum tanks a bit.

So 1.5 it is. I suppose the stove doesn't fit in the pot? :(

It might fit in a 1.5 L pot. You could bop over to Sport Chalet or REI (if they have a pot with similar dimensions), and see if it fits.

> "White gas" (a.k.a. Shellite, Coleman Fuel, Naptha, etc.), and I'm assuming unleaded gasoline
> (Roger? am I correct here?) will generally keep short term in an ordinary PET water bottle.

Unleaded petrol is not exactly the same as white gas of course. They put extra stuff in petrol to make car engines run better. Some of the additives are … undesirable for your health.
In addition, petrol typical can contain benzene – a known carcinogen. Afaik, white gas is not meant to contain benzene, but you would need to check this before relying on it.

Otherwise, both white gas and unleaded petrol are basically mixtures of hydrocarbons with carbon counts in the 4 to 12 range. The composition varies a bit depending on the refinery, the brand, the feed-stock, the phase of the moon, etc.

Now, keeping petrol in a PET bottle. I wouldn't do that for the long-term, but it may be OK in the short-term – for a walk for instance. PET is very robust. Just keep the bottle a LONG way from the stove!

Cheers

As someone who has used white gas stoves a lot and has a healthy appetite, a 22-oz bottle gets me 8 days, 9 at the most… boiling 3 pints a day. By extension, boiling 3 pints a day with an 11-oz bottle (filled to 10-oz) gets me around 4 days. Keep in mind that Hartley is talking not about 3 pints a day, but 12 pints a day! Much, much greater fuel consumption!

EDIT: More to the point here, with that amount of water boiled she'd probably need an 11-ounce bottle PER DAY.