Ultralight Rifle

[Dewey Riesterer]

David, first of all, thanks for linking to that report, one which is, IMO and IME, THE most realistic appraisal of what is most appropriate in the circumstances. I would only add that the old Arican round, now becoming very popular here in North America, the 9.3×62 Bock, used in inexpensive Mauser rifles by settlers to deal with marauding Lions, is an excellent option and we are now building/using these here in B.C., as I did yesterday.

The situation concerning backpackers here is very simple in that relatively few of these tourists have the skill and experience to safely deal with dangerous bears and/or firearms. You might note that I posted that I seldom carry a gun when backpacking and have never done so in my decades of BC bush recreation.

I DO carry when I deem it appropriate, however, this was/is largely concerned with my former employment in wilderness work, usually alone. I have the professional level training and lots of it, to do so safely; we have no way of determining whether a tourist backpacker has this or not, so, safety is one major concern.

Some years ago, a Norwegian fim crew was in the Canadian Arctic, to make a film(s) about Polar Bears and, they had ILLEGALLY brought a .44Mag. revolver into Canada. They used this to ILLEGALLY kill a Polar Bear and evidently thought that they were quite the rugged heros for doing so……there was a large and angry outcry about this and the "Feds" supposedly contacted the "Norske" government and made a complaint.

This is NOT the only example of "poaching" of rare Canadian wildlife here by foreign tourists and, it is important to understand, that, while Canada is a huge land, with incredible resources, WE OWN IT and it is not here for foreigners to use as they see fit. So, the poaching issue is another serious reason why I, and most Canucks, strongly oppose foreigners possessing guns here, while on vacation.

IF, a foreign backpacker wishes to trek through regions where considerable danger from bears exists, my feeling is that they should be REQUIRED to hire a certified Canadian guide to do so and said person would provide the protection required. There is a growing movement here to bring this into being, especially with the number of tourist skiers being killed in avalanches near my home town and I very much support mandatory backcountry guiding for all non-res. backpackers, as the wilderness resource belongs to us and can supply some of the funding we need to preserve it.

Hope this answers your query, I am in favour of gun ownership, obviously, but, NOT of un-restricted carrying and access to backcountry by anyone who wishes to do so….I have seen too many "recoveries" in my time in BC-AB wilderness work.

[Joe Kuster]

Dewey,

Good info. My wife and I planned a trek up north (nothing as extensive as the Artic 1000, but big for our standards). Good to know the regulations and I tend to agree with the assessment after your points regarding poaching. We have the same issue happen here, but it never seems to upset enough people to become an issue.

Granted, any international with license can rent a gun at a US range, sometimes even a machine gun (depends on local policy) but they generally don't just cut someone loose with them, pretty much under supervision only.

[David Olsen]

All respect on the guiding issue, while it is a good way to
employ folks, and many folks will benefit both
in safety and quality of their trip, private groups can be
just as safe, more rewarding and much cheaper.

If I want to raft the
Grand canyon, canoe the Bowron Lakes, hike in the Rockies
or ski in the Purcells, a large part of the
satisfaction of doing so is to be able to do it myself,with
a group of friends that have worked hard to be proficient. Not have someone hold my hand.

I've guided before in other areas and know the pros and cons
of doing so. I also have a friend who is an alpine guide
in Canada and was buried in an avalanche along with others
in the group (near Nelson). Being guided doesn't make the
trip safer in all cases.

Guiding is a good thing but shouldn't be a requirement.

Round here, everyone hunts, from the loggers to the accountants.
If you are not a good shot, you don't get to eat ;^).
Somehow just crossing the border doesn't suddenly make
them inept with firearms. The local gun club (town of
5000) has spent over $140,000 in the last 5 years in
facilities, education, and training to help insure
people are safe and successful in their use of firearms.
Not everyone should be held to the lowest standard of
behavior and education.

So was the killing of the Polar Bear a problem because
it wasn't attacking or because it was done with a smuggled
firearm?

And why I have to pay an extra $50 just to bring my hunting
rifle across the border is lame.

[Lynn Tramper]

May I suggest that those of you who wish to discuss international firearms and guiding issues, do so in chaff. We are trying to discuss the relative merits of an SUL rifle, NOT an illegally smuggled, polar bear killing warhead. I can't fathom how a one pound rifle could be considered a weapon of "self-defense" unless you are carrying it locked and loaded and slung across your shoulder. This might happen by luck if you happened to be hunting for small game, but to go into bear country during their high season and expect this gun to be protection is so naive as to almost qualify you for the darwin awards. However, it might come in useful against marauding Keas ;)

I think a hunting forum would be entirely appropriate. Why not combine hunting and fishing (I consider fishing to be a type of hunting). I too am interested in archery and maybe slingshot type hunting…

[Dewey Riesterer]

Lynn, I quite understand your point, I merely attempted to reply to a query directed to me. I could go into far greater detail to explain why and what my position is based on, however, it is not really relevant to the thread, as you point out.

The original issue has been very thoroughly discussed and my opinion is that the gun in question is of very limited utility in the part of the world where I live, have worked and recreate. This is due to various factors and it's rather high cost is among these as it would cost me about $600.00 CDN to buy one of these rifles.

Further comments concerning BC's current management crisis in respect of our wilderness areas, wildlife and Canada's firearms laws are probably of little interest to most here and I shall refrain from posting such due to this. I would, however, like to see a "backpack hunting-fishing section" here on BPL and, having done this for decades, I might be able to offer some valid comments on this activity.

[John Sixbey]

In reguards to creating a sub-forum for hunting, I think it's a fair idea. I regularly read a forum based in the greater Pacific NW, and whenever the topic of firearms came up, the result was identical to what you see here: heated opinions, political debate, prejudice, etc. Their solution was to give firearms their own sub-forum. People in locales enimical to weapons or hunting seem to ignore it, while people from areas where shooting & hunting are popular have a place to talk about it.

I think the 'net is big enough for everybody. I support the idea of a UL hunting section.

[Bob Kiley]

Enough Rifle BS is Enough. This subject falls outside the ground rules and therefor should be sent to CHAFF ! It's long overdue.

[Boozer]

Bob – flag it if you want and move on. If they haven't moved it yet they probably won't. I suggest if the thread is labeled UL Rifle you should just skip over it.

BTW I have no interest in an UL Rifle personally, but how is it not 'gear'? Maybe not common for this forum, but gear none the less.

[Sanad Toukhly]

Craig,
I've also been interested in bow hunting while backpacking. The Martin Stick longbow weighs 12 oz. I have yet to find a lighter alternative, but that is because most websites do not seem to list the weight of their bows. I think you could get a complete bow hunting system (including arrows and quiver) for about a pound with a bow similar to the weight of the Martin Stick. Personally, I would rather have a recurve instead of a longbow for hunting. I have not yet been able to find a light recurve though. Also, it would be ideal if it was a take down bow so you can store it inside your pack. However, every take down bow I've found is way too heavy.

-Sid

[W I S N E R !]

I've been looking at recurve take downs as well…
I'll be taking some archery lessons soon- I'll talk to the instructors about kit recommendations.

Ahhh, the money…I really want to get a Tenkara rod right now too….

[Tom Caldwell]

"The Martin Stick longbow weighs 12 oz"

I'm not sure that they are that light. I think the mass weight of the Savannah is listed at 17 oz. and mine is more like 26 oz with the string. You can figure 1.25 oz for an arrow.

[Sanad Toukhly]

"I'm not sure that they are that light. I think the mass weight of the Savannah is listed at 17 oz. and mine is more like 26 oz with the string. You can figure 1.25 oz for an arrow." -Tom Caldwell

The string weighs 9 oz?!

I would've never figured it weighs that much. I had predicted that the string would weigh maybe an ounce. I figured I would take 3 or 4 arrows with rubber or metal blunt heads (which are sufficient for small game) and a homemade quiver that weighs about 2 oz. This would've gave me a system that is a little over a pound, but if the string alone weighs that much, my theory is out the window… Perhaps there are lighter bows out there, I still need to do more research.

[Brian UL]

Anyone interested in sling shot hunting, here are a couple of sites:

http://www.huntercatapults.co.uk/index.html -UK site

http://bunnybuster.com/ -US site

[Brian UL]

Also found this site for going all out stone age in UL style.
http://slinging.org/
The disadvantage with slingshots and slings is the high amount of skill involved compared to rifles and bows relativity speaking.

[Curt Peterson]

A far cry from the wooden Y slingshots. Check out the video of the guy splitting pencils. Pretty accurate! Not sure what it weighs, though.

http://www.catsdomain.com/

[Tom Caldwell]

"The string weighs 9 oz?!"

NO, strings couldn't be much over an oz. I think mass weight has more to do with the amount of material in the riser. I'm not sure how they calculate that, but more mass will stabilize the bow more when it's shot, less handshock. A takedown will have more mass in the riser, due to the extra hardware for limb attachment. For instance, olympic recurves are quite a bit heavier than hunting bows, to keep them steadier, but they have high-tech lightweight limbs.

[j lan]

That slingshot is 1.1 pounds.

[Adam Thibault]

Hey has anyone checked out this little thing…
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&productId=14743&tabselected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=
It's 10.5 oz and would fit nicely into any pack. I've been looking at the possibilities of carrying a UL meat getter for some time now and this is the lightest option I've found (disregarding rocks). The barrel is kind of short so it probably wouldn't be too accurate, however most grouse and small game I've shot have been less than 20 yards. I'm sure this little revolver would be up to that task. With this plus a tenkara rod you're looking at about 1 lb for a fishing+hunting set up.

[Paul Vertrees]

I read Ryan's review, and I have to admit it's an interesting concept and design. I do, however, see the Pak Rifle as less than ideal for backcountry small game hunting/survival. I will preface this by saying that I have not field-tested it, as it's WAY to expensive for what it does, and I will not be buying one. I have, however, used .22 LR rifles in the backcountry, for extended periods of time, for small game hunting. I also consider myself a lightweight backpacker. So…here goes…

First, .22 cal is actually ideal for backcountry small game hunting where self-defense is not in the equation. .22 Magnum is too expensive, tears up a lot more meat, is much louder, and is harder to find on the shelf. I have no use for it. I have never felt limited by the range of the .22 LR. I can easily kill rabbits, snowshoe hares, and grouse out past 50 yards with my CZ 452, using open sights. In situations where I feel I need a self-defense firearm, as well as small game hunting, I take my Smith and Wesson Model 60 with .38 Spl handloads specifically loaded for small game, as well as 357 Magnum handload thumpers that are quite powerful. I've killed a lot of small game with my .38 Spl "mouse loads". With a rest, I can kill small game out to 30-40 yards with regularity with the revolver.

Second, there are a lot of lightweight .22s out there that are inherently more accurate than the Pak Rifle simply because of stock design, trigger design, longer barrel, etc. I have a CZ 452 Scout that is very short and light weight, and I guarantee it'll shoot circles around the Pak Rifle. The lack of trigger guard on the Pak Rifle worries me, too.

A Ruger 22/45 with a Pac-Lite barrel from Tactical Solutions, and a J-Point red dot sight is also a formidable backcountry small game hunting firearm, and one that I think I'll have one of these days.

One more note…I have always been able to shoot much more accurately with a rifle than I ever could with a handgun. A rifle is inherently more accurate, and my experiences prove that.

[Troy Ammons]

I have 2 older longs bows.

28# draw – 14 oz
55# draw – 22 oz

THe string weighs .3 oz

A carbon fiber arrow with 100 gr point weighs 1.2 oz

Definately dont what a long bow for hiking though. Get a wood takedown bow.

Something like this

http://www.archeryexchange.com/shopexd.asp?id=94

[Paul Vertrees]

Sid,

Even though I posted about the rifles, I actually bowhunt as much or more than I gun hunt. Just finished up a month of bowhunting elk here in Colorado. I also stump shoot and small game hunt with my bow a lot, especially with my daughters. That said, I would never take my bow unto the backcountry as a reliable, bomproof way to keep myself from starving. I've broken or lost way too many arrows to have confidence in that type of situation. You can carry a LOT more shots in your pack with .22 LR than you can with arrows.

I shoot a takedown Bob Lee Classic recurve, 51# @27". Selway slip-on quiver. A lot.

How I wish I had the talent and knowledge to craft arrows in the field like our ancestors did. I would then have a much different opinion on this! :)

[Todd Forbes]

I love the .22 cal and have 5 rifles & a pistol in that caliber but I started shooting the .17 HM2 & .17 HMR rounds which are just necked down .22 / .22 Mag rounds and was very impressed with the improved balistics over the .22.

The .17 HM2 has twice the velosity and is a lighter round then the .22.
Carbon Fiber barrels are easy to find in these calibers and make for a very lightweight rifle.

The HMR has become very popular and it's an easy round to find, the HM2 not so popular and not as easy to find but I order them online in bulk. If you like shooting small cal rifles you will really love these rounds, promise!

[Larry Dyer]

Given that so many people successfully hike in grizzly country without guns and live to tell about it I would assume that a .22lr would be ideal there too as a survival or food gathering tool. A person would just continue to handle the bear issue the exact same way as they do without a gun. As the saying goes, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" or in this case it'd be more like pounds of cure. No one should understand that more than the members of this site.

Even with the latest and greatest super ultra magnum going after the biggest baddest thing in the forest for food in a survival situation isn't the best way to survive really. A .22 should be ideal unless you're specifically hunting larger game.

That said, if one is planning on hunting for food some changes to the typical ultralight kit will probably be in order. I can see a bit more knife than what some here carry will be beneficial for processing meat and the typical alcohol stove would probably have to be swapped for a wood stove (where legal to do so) or a canister stove.

[Joe Kuster]

The .17 HM2 or HMR are high velocity rounds and fragment like crazy on impact making them unsuitable for small game that you plan to eat. They are great varmint and target guns, but for filling the pot, the .22 is a better option.

Shooting a squirrel with a .17 MHR leaves very little behind that is untainted.

[David Olsen]

Sling shot bow hunting.

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