ULers Carrying an Extra 20-40 lbs – WHY?!

"Im trying to keep it simple but just saying -eat old fashioned whole foods, plenty of veggies avoid the new fangled oils and sweeteners and such"

Amen. If you believe the American Cancer Society, the only thing I would add is to eat eat fresh, in season and locally grown produce.

"Even today the idea of eating traditional whole foods is controversial simply because that means eating meat and dairy "

Umm, not to me. Traditional foods for most of our ancestors did not include dairy, and they weren't getting the bulk of their meat from corn fed feedlot fattened steroid bloated livestock, antibiotic filled fowl and farmed salmon fed a diet deficient in essential fatty acids. They were not eating highly inbred fruits, grains and veggies, all bred to supply maximum sugars and starches. If you want to eat a traditional diet, go hunt some dear, bear or wild turkey, catch some fish, grasshoppers, grubs, snakes, worms and beetles, and gather some not very sweet fruits and not very starchy corn…

Charles, I believe what Brian is saying is that it is unfair to compare life spans of primitive peoples versus modern society. This is because medicine and other quality of life improvements positively affect life span. Sanitation being one of the biggest improvements.

So to say that primitive peoples lived short lives because of their diet is not a conclusion one can jump to.

"to say that primitive peoples lived short lives because of their diet is not a conclusion one can jump to."

I agree as well, however there is also a LOT of recent science that indicates a diet low in animal proteins may *likely* extend lifespan by a method similar to calorie restriction…at least in animal models. Taken in conjunction with the lack of long lifespan in most meat/dairy eating cultures, I would put my money on the well educated vegetarians to pip the carnivores at the longevity post:

The low-methionine content of vegan diets may make methionine restriction feasible as a life extension strategy.
Feb 2009

Recent studies confirm that dietary methionine restriction increases both mean and maximal lifespan in rats and mice, achieving "aging retardant" effects very similar to those of caloric restriction, including a suppression of mitochondrial superoxide generation. Although voluntary caloric restriction is never likely to gain much popularity as a pro-longevity strategy for humans, it may be more feasible to achieve moderate methionine restriction, in light of the fact that vegan diets tend to be relatively low in this amino acid. Plant proteins – especially those derived from legumes or nuts – tend to be lower in methionine than animal proteins. Furthermore, the total protein content of vegan diets, as a function of calorie content, tends to be lower than that of omnivore diets, and plant protein has somewhat lower bioavailability than animal protein. Whole-food vegan diets that moderate bean and soy intake, while including ample amounts of fruit and vegetables, and wine or beer, can be quite low in methionine, while supplying abundant nutrition for health (assuming concurrent B12 supplementation). Furthermore, low-fat vegan diets, coupled with exercise training, can be expected to promote longevity by decreasing systemic levels of insulin and free IGF-I; the latter effect would be amplified by methionine restriction – though it is not clear whether IGF-I down-regulation is the sole basis for the impact of low-methionine diets on longevity in rodents."

Brian Maynard wrote: "There is no way to deny that most of our ancestors ate high meat or dairy diets and where perfectly healthy."

References?

Okinawans are, in spite of access to modern health care, actually seeing a reduction in their longevity. This coincides very nicely with an increase in meat and ratio of fat in their diet:

Longevity and diet in Okinawa, Japan: the past, present and future.

Japan has the longest life expectancy at birth (LEB) in the world. Okinawa, Japan's poorest prefecture, previously had the highest longevity indices in the country. However, the latest LEB for men in Okinawa is no higher than the national average. The purpose of this study is to examine why the longevity indices in Okinawa were once the highest in Japan, and to examine the reasons for their recent decline. In 1990, in Okinawa, the age-adjusted death rates (ADR) of the three leading causes of death were lower than their national averages. By 2000, the standard mortality ratios (SMR, Japan=100) of heart disease and cerebrovascular disease for both sexes in Okinawa had increased, compared to their 1990 levels. Both of the ADR of ischemic heart disease and the ADR of cerebrovascular disease for men increased to 45.5 and 63.5 in 2000, up from 42.9 and 59.1 in 1990, respectively, and the SMR of ischemic heart disease for men in Okinawa reached 101 in 2000. Consequently, the national ranking of Okinawa prefecture for LEB of men has dropped. As of 1988, in Okinawa, daily intake of meat and daily intake of pulses were both approximately 90 grams, which is about 20% and 30% higher than the national average, respectively. Also, as of 1988, daily intake of green and yellow vegetables in Okinawa was about 50% higher than the national average. However, by 1998, daily meat intake and fat energy ratio had surpassed 100 grams and 30%, respectively, and daily intake of pulses and green and yellow vegetables had declined to the level of the national average. Recently, young Japanese, particularly young men in Okinawa, have shown a tendency to avoid the traditional dishes of stewed meat and champuru.

What else has increased in their diet? Sugar? Refined carbohydrates? That blurb doesn't really say. Were these factors tracked?

The results don't really imply the opposite (removing meat and fat increases longevity). But it might argue for moderation.

No dairy, lots of soy and not a steak in sight:

"These findings suggest that the following are the major reasons for these positive findings: the Hakka people maintain traditional food habits and maintain active awareness of their health; the major foods are rice, fish, vegetables and fruits; wide use of soybeans; consumption of visceral organs which have rich source of trace elements."

And these women don;t eat much meat:

"Independent of age, education, and other lifestyle factors, only the Healthy Traditional dietary pattern score (high intakes of vegetables, fruit, nonalcoholic drinks, dairy products, and potatoes) was associated with a lower mortality rate. Women in the highest tertile of this pattern experienced a 30% reduction in mortality risk. CONCLUSION: A Healthy Traditional Dutch diet, rather than a Mediterranean or modern Dutch diet (high intake of meat), appears beneficial for longevity and feasible for health promotion in older Dutch women. This diet is comparable with other reported healthy or prudent diets that have been shown to be protective against morbidity or mortality."

Eat lentils and drink water. Live till you are 105. Eating lentils and drinking water will be fun for 105 years.

Eat steak. Drink single malt and beer. Die of a heart attack at 65.

Mmmmm. I'll take the second option.

"Eating lentils and drinking water will be fun for 105 years."

Umm, you've obviously never tasted good vegetarian food. And beer and single malt ARE vegetarian.

.

I don't think i mentioned vegitarian food? :)

As the song says, 'who wants to live forever'.

>> I would put my money on the well educated vegetarians to pip the carnivores at the longevity post

Ok. Here Lynn and I will disagree (slightly).

As I understand it, vegetarian diets do not have their health benefits due to not eating meat.

Their health benefits are derived from eating a very high proportion of vegetables, which is not quite the same as eating no meat.

You can get essentially the same health benefits as from a vegetarian diet and still eat meat- you just must eat very very little of the meat, and eat proportionally much much more veggies.

"Traditional foods for most of our ancestors did not include dairy, and they weren't getting the bulk of their meat from corn fed feedlot fattened steroid bloated livestock,"

Well, that depends on whether you define traditional diet in 10"s of thousands of years or millions. Dairy is recent in our history but I would still consider it part of a traditional diet, grains are also recent in human history though not as recent as dairy. I also heard that no other primate eats grains? Not that it means that humans can't or shouldn't eat them but it is interesting. Most primates only eat a little meat too.
I totally agree with you on industrial farmed meat sources . Wild game and insect are preferable. I eat some insects- lobster and shrimp! ;)

"You can get essentially the same health benefits as from a vegetarian diet and still eat meat- you just must eat very very little of the meat, and eat proportionally much much more veggies."

My point was more to do with the methionine hypothesis of longevity. A *little* bit of meat or dairy is probably not going to swing you too far into methionine excess, but a *lot* will. So call it semi-vegan and maybe we can agree again??? Or call it being an educated, predominantly vegan diet :-) We are not talking weight or fatloss now (though most strict vegans are not overweight), but speculated longevity benefits. Or as Mike would have it, live hard die young, or live moderately and enjoy a long and healthy happy life…(or maybe Mike just doesn't like lentils?).

I actually do like lentils Lynn! :)
I tend not to worry about what i eat or drink though. That's the point i was trying to make. I never deny myself anything just because it's 'bad' for me. I'm kinda fatalistic about life. I know too many folk who scrimped and saved for their retirement, watched their diet all their life, yet still died young. I'll take whatever comes along.

"References?"

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/2006_Oxford.pdf

There a lot more out there but this one was easy to find online.

This thread is making me miss the gun threads.

now you can have both!

"There is no way to deny that most of our ancestors ate high meat or dairy diets and where perfectly healthy"

There is no way to deny that SOME of our ancestors ate a diet high in wild game. As to being perfectly healthy, there is no evidence of this, whether they were in the low meat eating category or high. An extremely important concept in discussing nutrition and longevity is not what our ancestors did, but how long and how healthy they lived. Natural selection with regards to diet only selects for health from a breeding perspective. Once you are/were past your breeding prime, natural selection has no way of keeping you healthy. So a diet high in animal foods and dairy may have been beneficial for breeding purposes, but not necessarily longevity.

Just because our ancestors ate lots of animals and bred lots of young meat eaters to follow on, does not mean it is a good diet choice for longevity. In fact, there is also a good negative correlation between the number of children you have and longevity. Every child, at least for the mother, decreases her life expectancy in an additive fashion, so if an animal based diet was selective because it lead to better breeding success, it almost certainly would have lead to decreased longevity.

"Or as Mike would have it, live hard die young, or live moderately and enjoy a long and healthy happy life…"

Or live moderately, get struck by lightning, and die young… ;}

BTW, not all beer is veg friendly. Read up on it…..it was a good friend who is a long time vegan who showed me that one. Hah!

http://www.veganvanguard.com/vegism/beer.html

"BTW, not all beer is veg friendly."

That's good to know if you're veg for ethical or religious reasons, but probably not relevant to the possible health aspects of a predominantly veg diet…besides, some vegans can't even agree if yeasts and fungi are plants or animals, so from an ethical point of view beer and other fermented foods, as well as mushrooms may be off the menu. There's a pretty broad line between fanatacism and common sense!

Thought I would jump in here with a joke, that this last post reminded me of, from the Simpsons:

"I'm a level 5 vegan–I don't eat anything that casts a shadow".

I have to be careful of what adjectives I use around you Lynn.
true some eat lower amounts than others. My point was just that meat in both small or high amounts has always been part of the human diet. So if you want to eat healthy go ahead and eat meat and dairy -you wont keel over from clogged arteries and neither did our ancestors.
Of caorse eating vegan/vegetarian can be perfectly healthy too. Its just as you said before, more difficult to do and relys on the fact that we have more kinds of food and info available to use today. Both systems work its just a shame that certain interest groups try and demonize one another spreading misinformation and leaving the public confused about what they should eat.

"you wont keel over from clogged arteries and neither did our ancestors"

We have no way of knowing how ancestral diets affected longevity. What *worked* for reproductive success and what is *optimal* for long and healthy life can not be teased out from historical data. So all we *know* for certain is from epidemiological data (which certainly has it's limitations" and animal studies (which have even bigger limitations). These all show that a diet low in animal proteins leads to increased longevity compared to diets high in animal proteins. But from a fatloss perspective we can be sure that eating less calories is the way to go, meat or no meat, high fat or low fat.

"its just a shame that certain interest groups try and demonize one another spreading misinformation and leaving the public confused about what they should eat."

Couldn't agree more. At face value, I still think the advise to "not eat anything with a label on it" is the best and simplest prescription, and if you need to lose fat, eat less, exercise more.