Lightest 2 Person 3 Season Double Wall Tent Alternatives to Evolution 2P?

EJ,

I am sorry but the sheet with most of the information you asked for is in California and I am in Minnesota at the moment. I was planning on writing a review of it for BGT after my trip to Yosemite with Jenn at the end of May and do not have much written down yet on my laptop. I do weigh each component the minute it comes from the store and write it on the hang tag which then goes in a review drawer in my desk until I write it up. Here is what I have so far.

Manufacturer: Big Agnes Inc
Web site: http://www.bigagnes.com
Product: Copper Spur UL3
Year manufactured: 2008
MSRP: US $499.95
Size: 3 person
Packaged weight (complete) listed: 4 lb 12 oz (2.15 kg)
Actual weight: 4 lb 9 oz (2.07 kg)
Interior height listed: 44 in (112 cm)
Length listed: 90 in (229 cm)
Width listed: 70 in (178 cm)
Stuffed size listed: 7x 22 in (18 x 56 cm) verified accurate
Color: Copper (kind of a burnt orange)

We used it in the snow this winter and it did pretty well. We did not have much in the way of wind though. We had some wind in Nevada and Utah which it handled with aplomb. I like using it without the fly on any chance I get and Jenn has come to like it too. (I just have to find hidden spots to place it…) The fabric makes no difference in the heat category but it does help with sand blowing in.

I liked the lighter weight of the Seedhouse SL3 (full review and weights of it is here ) for the two of us but Jenn likes the double side entry of the Copper Spur much better so I just sold the Seedhouse. (A happy wife is a happy life, you know) The center arch pole makes for more room inside too. It is nicer when stuck inside due to weather.

I am on the list with Henry for a Hogback and Scarp 2. If I get them before the Yo trip I am going to see if Jenn will try the Scarp instead. Here is a shot looking inside. The green BA bag is my 20 F long and the REI bag is a 15F Women’s long.

"I never used a groundcloth with the Contrail or the Rainbow, personal choice."

* How do you like the Rainbow? I like the combo of the spacious interior + studiness – how is it for ventilation and condensation? It's my first choice so far for solo shelter, especially since the SMD Vamp won't go into production until later in the summer and there are no specs available for it yet.

* Do you plan to use your Scarp 1 "Light" as a 3 season shelter more than your Rainbow or Contrail? I like your Scarp 1 Light with poles to support the tent instead of the hoop – how much weight do you save by leaving the hoop at home? I always use trekking poles.

* Does your Scarp 1 Light setup include the inner tent? Is any mod necessary to support the inner when you use poles instead of the hoop pole?

"The only mod I did was the one to get the freestanding inner and that is the same used to put the poles inside."

* What exactly was the mod? By "to get the freestanding inner" did you mean to hold the inner in place without the hoop pole?

"fans of floppy set-ups do not apply…"

* I prefer a taut pitch

"See pic of the Scarp 2 in the snow) pole inside set up."

* I can't tell from the photo that the pols are inside.

"See pic of the Scarp 2 (in the snow) pole inside set up."

* I can't tell from the photo that the pols are inside.

No offence but that explains a lot.
Franco

LOL a) I meant trekking poles not crossed poles – I thought you meant trekking poles + crossed poles supporting the tent on the inside – I can see the crossed poles! b) I'm jetlagged and exhausted out of my mind turning around a client in New York and have been sneaking forum peeks and posts "under the influence" of sleep deprivation. The only thing keeping me going for the week is dreams of gear and a great trip…

FYI I tried to order a Scarp 2 yesterday but Henry doesn't sell them before they are ready to ship – plan to pick one up as soon as it's shipping and try it out in all configurations.

By the shape of it I can tell that it is trekking pole supported , but tents are a hobby with me so it's something "obvious" to me as the difference between a Maserati and a Lamborghini would be to a car buff (they all look the same to me…)
This is what it looks like inside. The weight saving would be about 6.5 oz, the weight of the pole. But I would not use it that way, it's just a "what if" set up, the same reason I carry plastic bread bags with me , just in case my feet get cold…
Franco

Hi Franco,

I know that a trekking pole supported Scarp 1 would have a straight side wall – and that a hoop supported tent would have a rounded wall – that's totally obvious – I thought you were referring above in the description of your mods to a setup with BOTH trekking poles + hooped pole at the same time (trekking poles providing extra support in additon to the hooped pole) – I guessed maybe for snow loading. Anyway, we're on the same page now.

Just curious – using it with trekking poles sometimes to save a little more weight looks appealing – why would you avoid using it that way?

Back to the grind…

"I thought you were referring above in the description of your mods to a setup with BOTH trekking poles + hooped pole at the same time (trekking poles providing extra support in addition to the hooped pole) – I guessed maybe for snow loading"
Yes that too. You can see that in the middle picture in that previous post. Because the fabric tension is on the hoop pole and not the trekking poles , to keep the poles in there you need something that takes the shape of the hoop pole and the handle , a sock is something that you should have with you. Be prepared to have a wetter pair of socks but it is an "emergency" type set up…
Why not leave the pole home ? Not worth the weight saving for me, since with the trekking poles it gives me more options.
Franco

BTW that pole support I have had in mind since that infamous picture of the Akto collapsed under the snow, well before Henry bothered designing the Scarp ( which incidentally it's an almost custom made tent for me except that he designed that for himself)

I see. Nice. Do you use the Scarp 1 as your primary 3 season tent? It's a great tent but I was hoping to stay under 2 lbs/person for 3 season shelter, solo or 2 person. It's not that much more weight though for a lot more stability.

Noticed the Scarp 1 has bottom half fabric and top half mesh on the inner tent, and the Scarp 2 all mesh (on the 3 season inner) – is this to provide extra venting for moisture and heat from two people in the warmer months?

Henry will make available a mesh and a fabric inner for both the Scarp 1 and 2. You could buy one of each ….
Initially i thought that the mesh inner would be a good idea for summer but as it happens I received the Scarp just as summer was ending but still managed to deliver some hot days. At that point under a 38c (100f) sun the fabric inner was giving some protection against the sun (I was doing the freestanding bugnet bit) , not as effectively as the Sublite Tivek but much better than under the silnylon fly (at times hotter than outside) . Strangely I was also very comfortable inside at night with temps from 23c (73 F) at 11PM !, to a minimum of 18 c (64 F) , about 5 AM .
No sleeping bag required ….
I will mostly still use the Contrail because it works for me, is very light and packable and fun to use, but as I am preparing for some "winter" outings the Scarp will kick in then.
My Rainbow is the "safe" tent for my mates now, but a couple have used the Contrail.
Keep in mind that some of the shelters I have are only for me to play with various ideas, in fact several I would never use but some like that design.
( 1,2,3,4 poles, poncho/tarp, pyramid 1/2 and soon 4 person , semi-geodesic, bivvy…)
Franco

Franco,

I would love to hear your opinion on what you see as the main advantages of the Scarp 2 over the Copper Spur 2. I know the fabric inner will make the Scarp better for cold weather but would like to hear any input you have.

I have been thinking that I will purchase a Scarp 2 when they become available, but recently have been looking harder at the Copper Spur as a lighter alternative.

Thanks,

Ed

Ed
Thanks for asking, not that my opinion should matter.
First to me you need to like the design and see yourself "using" that tent , we tent to embellish what we like and gloss over what we don't, so if it does not appeal to you the specs are in the end less important than perception.
Now for some comparisons :
Similarities : both have the fly slightly high to facilitate air flow
both can be freestanding (the BA vestibules are not supported)
similar waterhead (1200mm for the BA)

Differences
The BA will have a better view if set up inner only (as a bug net) but the Scarp has better sun and rain protection that way
(if it starts raining you have enough time to get out and put the fly over without getting the interior wet)

Advantage BA : lighter if used in freestanding mode about 3:13 lbs vs the Scarp at just over (?) 4 lbs

Advantage Scarp : Fly/inner pitch together (or fly first)
Faster set up ( under 2 min on "ideal" conditions for 3 season set-up)
larger floor area ( 2 "sq extra but more than that in usable space)
more headroom (45" vs 42")
enough space for a pack and boots and unobstructed entry on both sides
lighter in 3 season mode
4 season performance with the extra poles
More "convertible" (two inners,fly /inner only set up, 1 pole/3 poles, trekking poles assisted,trekking poles only)
Pole supported vestibules
Cheaper
and for some …. made in USA

A lot of the above is just personal opinion and based in theory so you need to decide for yourself.
Franco

Franco quick quesiton on the inner – is the inner pictured on your Scarp 1 (and on Tarptent.com) the fabric or mesh inner? It's fabric on the bottom and mesh on top. I'm guessing that's the fabric inner.

The inner pictured on the Tarptent's site for the Scarp 2 is all mesh.

Gawd, Franco cracks me up.

Hey now EJ! You stop cutting in line or I’m gonna tell on you… I want that tent now, mister.

I hear what you mean about jet lag. I spend at least a week in MN with my kids each month and with the flux that the airline industry is in (I fly NWA, who just merged with Delta, who ended the partnership with Continental) I have schedule changes each week. I am testing a tent right now. Because a storm was supposed to hit last night while the kids were still here I decided to set the tent up on the commons, after a bit of a discussion with the manager, where the kids could see it and could yell should they need me. (They are very used to me and my gear as they have helped test and review items too. They love being my “models”.) Then as soon as I dropped them off to mom today I was heading to a flooded State Park to spend the night again. I just don’t get this chance at massive moisture in CA.

So I break the tent down and pack everything in the vehicle at 6:30 AM, get the kids off to school and start figuring what to bring to eat and such. Thank goodness NWA sends me emails. My flight leaves at 8:00 AM, not 1:00 PM like I thought. That would not have been good.

You know EJ, you just need to give as good as you get with Franco. Here try this.

“it's just a "what if" set up, the same reason I carry plastic bread bags with me , just in case my feet get ”

What, Yeasty?

For Ed,

I have the Copper Spur 3 for my wife and I. I am getting the Scarp 2 and hoping it will be wide enough for her. The Copper Spur 2 is much narrower at the bottom of the tent. Neither of us liked it for two people. What I do not understand is why with the CS 2 they used the angled footprint of the Seedhouse instead of making it a strait rectangular shape like the CS 3. (And yes, if you guys have not noticed yet I am a huge BA and Seedhouse SL2 guy. I think I got Ben to buy his. Please don’t hate me…)

> I am getting the Scarp 2 and hoping it will be wide enough for her. The Copper Spur 2 is much narrower at the bottom of the tent.

The Scarp 2 floor is a full 52" x 86"– no narrowing at the feet– and the walls are fully vertical. You will find it much roomier for sleeping than the Copper Spur 2.

-H

Hi Henry,

(Where's my tents… ;-)

My conversation has been drug around a bit. Yes as I was saying the CS 2 narrows like the Seedhouses. The CS 3, that Jenn and I use is a true rectangular footprint, but heavier than the Scarp 2. While she would not consider the CS 2 she loves the CS 3 (which is why I have it even though it is heavier than the Seedhouse 3.) I am hoping that the full 52" of the Scarp will do it for her. I suppose I can carry the Hogback for her. It will still be lighter but may be tricky finding level sites that big where she likes to hide…

Once I get that I am going to feel like a Winnebago owner…

(But I can't wait. Keep my place in line!)

Ray
That "bread bag" comment was, for a change, unintentionally funny. I really do carry bread bags with me , typically 6. as I eat very little bread it takes me a long time to get new ones together. Hard to see but the one in the picture has a kind of aluminized finish that makes it look more "professional".
They are a cheap "vapour liner" and allow me to wear my wet boots at camp without having to whinge about it ( coolmax socks, bread bags (2 each foot) day socks, wet boots)
They also warm my feet up in the bag.
If I had the money I would provably buy something like the RBH stuff.
Franco

Henry-

Is there any chance that you will add a mesh inner tent to the Scarp 1 like you have with the Scarp 2? And what are your findings between the breathabilty of the two. I do most of my hiking here in the humid Southeast

I just purchased Ben's BA Seedhouse SL2 and am looking forward to trying it out. I also have an REI quarterdome UL2 that is appropriate to mention for this thread, although it is a bit heavier, but still under 4 lbs and many have used it in 3+ season outings, even on Mt. Rainier.

I was really stoked about the Scarp 2 when it came out (ironically I emailed Henry and asked him if he ever thought of having a Scarp 1.5 or 2 a few weeks before the announcement, to which he replied simply to check back in a few weeks :) ). Then once the pics were up, I noticed that the fly was quite a ways off the ground, which is great for breathability, but not so great for warmth & wind/spindrift/sand protection – which are important to me. Henry was kind enough to confirm and point this out to me before I made the purchase.

It looks like an excellent design and if I was in the SE or camped below treeline more, I would likely go with it, as it seems to be one of the most versatile 3+ season set ups. Maybe Henry could do a full-on winter version one day with a larger top vent and lower fly coverage that could adjust up for low ventilation (a la 2009 Terra Nova Laser – which I just returned for being overweight, way too small and having questionable stitching on the inner).

Aaron, how far off the ground did Henry say the fly was?

I think someone mentioned that he might be open to doing special order versions with lower flys.

> Is there any chance that you will add a mesh inner tent to the Scarp 1 like you have with the Scarp 2?

Yes, that's coming but we need to find a production slot for it. "Summer" is about all I can say for a timeline.

> And what are your findings between the breathabilty of the two. I do most of my hiking here in the humid Southeast

The "inner" on the Scarp 1 (and winter inner on the Scarp 2) is made of calendared ripstop nylon. It's windproof, highly water resistant, and holds more heat than mesh but is obviously not as breathable as mesh. The mesh windows at the top of each door do vent well and in combination with leaving the fly doors at least partially ajar you'll get flowthrough. For summer in the SE, wait for the mesh inner.

For the "winter" inner shown on the Scarp 1, where the lower part is fabric and the upper part is mesh, can the breathable fabric be fully zipped up over the top mesh as needed?

I ask because on our winter/mountaineering tent (Allak) one entire side of both inner tent entrances is no-see-um mesh covered on the inside by a zipper-adjustable fabric panel (in other words, you can fully close the breathable fabric for warmth). Even though the fabric breathed extrremely well, we never zipped it up entirely, leaving a few inches vent open at the top of each side.

This feature made a huge difference in warmth for us when winter camping, especially when the wind picked up. This feature would likely add minimal weight, but a lot of warmth. I'd even condsider making my own mod for this with velcro tabs and 2 pieces of ripstop fabric shaped to fit the side top mesh panels if we wind up using the Scarp 2 in winter, of if I use the Scarp 1 as a winter solo.

My wife and I have already decided to pick up a Scarp 2 as soon as available for 3+ season use, but it would be nice to try it for winter later with a fabric inner that can be closed up.

I recently bought this tent for an upcoming hike and here is the weight breakdown:

poles: 16oz
fly: 18oz
tent body: 19oz

total: 53oz or 3 lbs 5 oz

While it is a snug fit for two in it's width at the foot end, the height is amazing. On a side note, I emailed Big Agnes about questions I had concerning the tent and was promptly answered. Seemed the guy was pretty high up with tent design and was genuinely interested in our conversation.

Zach: Thanks for posting the specs. That tent definitely give the BS Evo a run for it's money…and it's money. Imagine it with Carbon fibre poles (it'd be lighter than the Evo and about $200 more!) I wish I could justify the $ for the 3 person version for family trips, but I'm stoked about the ALPS Zephyr 3 for $90. Do give us some performance/satisfaction feedback after your trip.

Henry: I know you're probably tired of getting compliments from BPL members, but I have to give you props for great designs and being super-responsive to questions and threads. I wish I could keep up that well with my clients!

Ashley: I didn't ask specifically, neither did he say, but it looks to be about 3-4", or so…though I'd best not speculate since Franco is on this thread and surely has a measuring tape…although it might differ a bit from the Scarp 1.

Franco;

I have been reading all forums re the Scarp 1 and have ordered one, which should be here in 8-10 days.

I noticed you have a set-up with poles "in-side" and was wondering where the pole ends attach.

I also noticed you posted a picture of 4 pole socks with a ring attachment at one end. These were made up for you by Henry and I'm wondering are these used for the inner pole config.

Thanks, Jim K.

Although not a true double wall tent, the Double Rainbow plus liner is a 'virtual' double walled tent that has performed very well for us in a lot of bad weather. 50" width, and 45oz is pretty darn good, and can be pitched 'free-standing' if you don't need the vestibules. If you don't need the free-standing mode, you can chop off the extra bits and shave a few more ounces. The white liner also makes a nice reflective barrier against hot sun, and the porches are superb for airflow in calm rainy weather (if you have enough poles…).