Switching from Canister stove

Christopher,
For shame! You are luring Sid into the abyss of making alky stoves. We may never see him again.

Seriously, on thruhikes – where I am out for several months – I alternate between alky and Esbit. No substantive reason for that; I just like to vary my routine. Finding Esbit is no problem on the AT. Other long trails are different.

Careful analysis of system weights always leads to Esbit – if you calculate all factors and use average daily weight. But it smells like fish. I think someone mentioned that.

For alky, I use a Red Bull Fuzzy's Little Stove because it is both light (0.25 oz) and efficient and works OK down to single digit temps. It is also its own pot stand. All it needs is a short windscreen (oven liner). I make one (it takes about 5 minutes)(and pick up a small drinking water bottle or just use a HEET bottle) any time I want to use alcohol instead of Esbit, although sometimes I carry both burners. For an Esbit burner I use a titanium wing (0.4 oz).

By the way, conical wind screens seem to work better in the wind and seems to interfere less with proper combustion of either alcohol or Esbit. Making a small conical windscreen from oven liner is duck soup.

No "kitchen" ?
What Dan& Nick said.
As for melting snow, those 200-300ml you will get if you manage to melt the snow inside your 1 L Nalgene are not going to quench your thirst for very long.
Franco

Sid,
Stoveless can work. I think the SuperUL folks do sometimes to get to the SUL weights. Dan points out that rehydrating food is a problem. It will take a lot longer to rehydrate things like rice and pasta with cold water, but is can be done. You will just have to be patient, like waiting an hour or two instead of 10 minutes. However, since you have already done 3 and 4 day trips with out a stove, maybe you could tell us what you ate. It would be good for future reference to a lot of folks. Was it all just trail bars and granola? I'd be interested.
Thanks,
-Mark

I go stoveless frequently, up to 10 days so far with no problems other than a pronounced longing for a cup of HOT coffee. Lots of nuts, chocolate and cruched up crackers, sesame sticks, potato chips, corn chips, plus 1 oz olive oil/day, for a calorie count of ~2700/day in 21 oz. No dehydrated food at all. I think you can get far more calories using these ingredients than with any dehydrated meal I have seen so far in a lot less space. It ain't gourmet, for sure, but it gets the job done.

Tom,

Thanks for the info. I see a lot of fats and starches. Do you add any protein?- Jerky? Protein bars? Or do you get enough with the nuts and seed type items?

-Mark

No stove ==> no hot coffee.

Fergedit.

:-)

No stove ==> no hot coffee.

Fergedit.

I think it's important to consider fuel consumption/efficiency rates in addition to starting weight of a stove system. In other words, although my Ti-Tri is perhaps an ounce heavier than some alky stoves it is roughly double in fuel efficiency than many. In effect, two meals/boils make up for any weight differential. And although you might have a .25 oz popcan stove, you do need to factor in the windscreen and pot support…

At any rate, I did the fuel and stove system efficiency calcualations for my needs and found that my Ti-Tri holds its own or bests canister systems up to about 10 days out. I boil about 2.5 pints per day; for a 12 day trip I need about 16 fl oz of alcohol. 16 fl oz times 0.8 mass oz = 12.8 oz of fuel. My fuel bottle weighs 0.6 oz. Ti-Tri and 12-10 stove weigh about 1.5 oz. So for 12 days I start with 15 ounces for stove and fuel.

In contrast, my Snowpeak Litemax would burn just over 8 ounces of fuel in the same time. The stove itself weighs 1.9 oz. The empty canister weighs something like 4 ounces. Add 8 ounces of fuel and assume I eat a few cold meals (so I don't have to carry another canister). That's 14 ounces. But at the end of the trip, my canister set-up will weigh 6 ounces and my alky set-up will weigh just over 2.

Brad – my home made Red Bull stove weighs a scant .25 ounces (I posted the wrong weight above). It boils a pint of cold water on only 2/3 ounce of alcohol, so 1.5 pints on an ounce easy. Windscreen/pot stand is .75 ounces. So in the end, roughly 1.5 to 1.75 ounces for stove, windscreen, and fuel container, and it's even a little more efficient than the Ti-Tri specs you mention (1.3 ounces of fuel for the same task).

So I agree, alcohol stoves can be overall more efficient than canister stoves, even for longer trips. In addition, the alcohol stove looses fuel weight quicker, as Matt pointed out above, so the average weight per day is almost always lower. I have yet to find an instance in my backpacking where the canister stove is lighter overall than my other two options (BushBuddy usually being the lightest, followed by the alky).

Not an ultralight tramper. Until today the stove kit was a Trangia & Clikstand2. Probably ~8oz. Received the BushBuddy Ultra (BBU) today. Initial impressions after a test run is very positive. 5C air temp, 10C water, 10-15 knot breeze. ~9minutes after placing pot on stove a rolling boil was reached. Will probably be my primary stove with the alcohol burner as a backup. Weight with the Trangia nestled inside the BBU is I'm guessing around 8oz. Net loss of weight with less fuel to carry. Light, functional and no mechanical parts to breakdown. Plus if you fly to destinations where HEET is unavailable you can still have a cup of hot tea.

i like the BB, never used one though. but i do have the ti-tri and like it very much as well. with either system you could take an esbit tab or 2 incase you are feeling lazy or had a really wet day. both of these systems seem to have the best of both worlds.
and please don't forget the stone realiability of alcohol, esbit, or wood. the last trip i was on there were 4 stoves: my ti-tri, a snow peak canister, a jetboil, and a coleman multifuel. the snow peak somehow didn't seal correctly and lost a canister of fuel due to leakage, and the coleman fuel bottle leaked all the fuel out on the morning of day 3. the jetboil worked well, as did my ti-tri( i was using the alky setup).
just my 2 cents, and probably not worth that.
ben-

Hey, Dan-
It's probably just a typo, but to keep things on the same page, I boil 2.5–not 1.5–pints on ~1.25 oz. Regardless, we're ultimately saying the same thing, eh? Cheers-

My friends "cook" their dehydrated stuff by putting it in a plastic bag on top of their pack. After a while, the sun warms it up and rehydrates it pretty well. It's not hot, but it's not too bad. I tasted it. I wonder if things would improve if they set a piece of foil underneath the bag.

I don't understand why you have to choose between an alcohol and esbit stove. Isn't an esbit stove just a platform for the tabs? Can you just make a stove from a can and flip it over when you want to use esbit?

Brad – my brain read cups, not pints. :)

You're boiling 5 cups per day on only 1.25 ounces? Is that room temperature water, not cold stream water?

It'd take my BB zero ounces of carried fuel to boil the 5 cups. ;)

We're saying the same thing though – yes – that efficient alcohol stoves are tough to beat with canister stoves for carried weight, even on longer multi-day solo trips. Especially when you average the carried weight per day.

I think choosing between canister, alcohol or esbit based cooking systems comes down to individual needs, all of the three stove systems have advantages and disadvantages.

My personal choice is a canister stove, (upright in warmer temps and a remote canister in cold temps) I usually only do 2-4 dayers and as I like to eat gourmet meals while bushwalking I want a stove system that I can simmer with.

I have extensively tested both alcohol and canister stoves systems and while the simplicity of the the SUL alcohol system fascinates me I think that I will keep using my canister stoves.

Tony

>I don't understand why you have to choose between an alcohol and esbit stove. Isn't an esbit stove just a platform for the tabs? Can you just make a stove from a can and flip it over when you want to use esbit?

Depends on if the esbit would melt your can or not. If not, it should work fine. I think Vargo makes some stoves that work like that.

The Mrs and I just got back from an overnight in SNP and this morning we were talking about a MYOG esbit/alcohol stove. I tried to search the forums but… Just type MYOG stoves on this site and you'll see what i mean. anybody got one that can hold a 2liter pot?

Hey, Dan-
Not 36 degree stream water, but mid-50ish water. In 0*F weather with slushy water to start I used 45ml to boil 2 pints.

I do like the BB advantages. I just can't stomach the price! Hopefully one day soon I, too, will be able to play with one. I spend a fair bit of time in the BWCA; fire restrictions there can be a drag at times, but…

@Brad J. Falk's Bushwacker Stove is a cheaper alternative to the BB. You can buy the stove or the MYOG instructions from their web site.

http://site283.webhost4life.com/afmservices/trailgear/bushwhacker/bushwhacker-stove.htm

At 42% heaveir, it should be cheaper. :)

There is a thread in MYOG for to build a very cheap BB looking wood stove that seems to work pretty slick as well. edit: see next post…

Found the thread… it’s right here:

Homemade Downdraft Gassifier Wood Buring Stove

Brad, last summer I made a wood burning stove similar to the one Dan refers to, but used a Heineken can for the outer and a salmon (tapered) can for the inner. The results were so, so, as the firebox is a bit small. Total weight: 85g. Try it, you'll have fun!

But back to Sid's original topic. I have several stoves, and as many have already suggested, I let the trip determine the stove. I wont take the wood burner during the wet shoulder seasons or when the fire danger is extreme, for instance. Last summer I used canister, wood, alcohol, and Esbit, but mostly the latter because I had a ton of the tabs and they're the lighest. Since my job as a Wilderness Ranger requires me to carry unusual and heavy gear such as a shovel and radio, I try to cut weight wherever I can.

However, a caveat: Esbit is the least efficient in windy conditions, even with a good windscreen. But maybe that can be improved by using a Caldera Cone…hmmm, I'll have to try that!

"Thanks for the info. I see a lot of fats and starches. Do you add any protein?- Jerky? Protein bars? Or do you get enough with the nuts and seed type items?"

Mark,

There is more protein in that list than meets the eye. I do a detailed analysis and make sure that I get ~65-70 grams of protein/day. The menu breakdown is ~44% carb, 46% fat and 10% protein. What I am not so sure about is whether or not the amino acid profile is balanced, but so far I seem to do OK for the 10 day trips I have used this diet on. I also try to get ~20 grams of fiber in there. That has been the hardest nut to crack.
Tom

Rick –
Look Here. Simple. Robust. Cheap.

Look Here for all the theory and permutations.

You Will need a windscreen to keep any alky stove efficient.

>However, a caveat: Esbit is the least efficient in windy conditions, even with a good windscreen. But maybe that can be improved by using a Caldera Cone…hmmm, I'll have to try that!

Interestingly enough, we found that Esbit on the Gram Cracker is actually more efficient in the Caldera than alcohol….and lighter. You do need to use the Gram Cracker or some other similar method to slow the burn rate down. Without it, the esbit just burns on all sides of the "cube" and generates heat faster than the pot/water can absorb it…..and the heat just pumps out the vents…..making it less efficient.

Rand :-)