Switching from Canister stove

This link is a good place to start.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/comparative_fuel_efficiency_and_weight_of_stoves_pt2.html

James

Unfortunately I do not have a subscription with BPL so I do not have access to the article you are referring to.

The main draw backs of esbit is that it leaves a sticky residue on the pot and it is not as easily available as alcohol.

There's actually not much difference in weight once you add a decent windscreen to an esbit setup. Most alcohol stoves use a combined potstand and windscreen.

Sanad, I have used the esbit on and off for years. The main drawbacks for me are the toxic fumes and the fact that they are very difficult to light. Other than that they work well are small and light strong and pretty cheap. Ali

> There's actually not much difference in weight once you add a decent windscreen to an esbit setup. Most alcohol stoves use a combined potstand and windscreen.

Since you are considering a Caldera…..I should point out that the Cone (windscreen+potstand) is the same for both esbit and alcohol. As to the stove weight difference, the GramCracker esbit stove weighs 3 grams…..while the combined alcohol stove + fuel bottle weighs 35 grams. So, the weight difference between the cooking apparatus is 12x comparing esbit to alcohol.

Rand

>the GramCracker esbit stove weighs 3 grams…..while the combined alcohol stove + fuel bottle weighs 35 grams. So, the weight difference between the cooking apparatus is 12x comparing esbit to alcohol.

Well yes, but the caldera is on the heavier side for alcohol stoves. The alcohol setup I use weighs about 17g and you're not counting the grams (or fraction there of) in the plastic package for the esbit. :)

Never the less a 1 oz total difference I still consider to be relatively small. Others can rightfully disagree.

Well, I actually don't really like the idea of the toxic fumes that come with the esbit tabs. I think I will try out the Side B stove from AGG. It is only .9 oz for the whole set up.

One of my friends thru hiked the PCT in 2003 and used an Esbit stove. He now uses a cat can stove, because fuel is much easier to obtain on long hikes. When I sought his advice on UL stoves, he highly recommended I try an alcohol stove over Esbit.

For a long hike, do some calculations. You will probably find that a lightweight cannister stove is actually lighter than alcohol, because the stove is much more efficient. And again, one would need to take into consideration the availability of fuel along the way.

I'm making the switch too. How much alcohol do I need per person per meal, on average?

"I'm making the switch too. How much alcohol do I need per person per meal, on average?"

A good splash or two. With practice you will figure out how much you need and not have to worry about measuring.

I've read a lot of posts trying to research this same thing in the past. I found people had significantly different fuel consumptions (1/2 oz to 1 oz for boiling 2cups) – based on lots of factors (water temp, windscreen spacing & vent sizes, what they considered "boiling", etc). Also, some people got 75% of the performance of the Caldera with a "good" windscreen (but not nearly as much convenience). I noticed that for most people who used both and did some testing (or kept good notes), gas used about 1/2 as much fuel as alchohol . Counterbalance the reduced fuel with the canister weighs as much as the gas (4 oz cannister really weighs around 8 oz).

When I go hiking with my wife in the spring & fall, we like instant oats & hot cocoa, and may even heat some soup around mid-day if it's cold. This meant gas was lighter very quickly. Plus nothing poisonous gets on my hands, the fumes aren't any more poisonous than my gas range at home, and I can store my fuel in my pot without worrying about leakages.

This is what I keep trying to quantify. It seems the alcohol gets heavy quick but will win (weight wise) on weekends. What stove do you use?

For members, take a look at the fuel efficiency article.

Quick summary for a solo hiker it takes much more than a couple of days for a canister to catch up with the weight of alcohol. Fuel tabs are slightly lighter. So if you like your canister stove that’s great but it’s very hard to make an argument based on weight alone.

It was reading this article that convinced me to switch.

Edit: removed proprietary information.

I like alchy setups only for very short trips, overnights or 2 nights max. After that my canister setup is generally equal or lighter, and way more convenient.

Rick and Sid,
Check out this article on Thru-Hiker about fuels vs time on the trail

http://thru-hiker.com/articles/stoveweight_vs_time_14days.php

There are other articles on thru-hiker.com about this subject as well as a lot of other things, so check it out if you haven't already. also check out

http://zenstoves.net/

I use a Caldera Keg with alcohol for one to four day solo trips. I can heat 2 cups of 60 F water in 6-7 min. with 15ml. (about 1/2 oz) of denatured ethanol. In my experience with other stoves and windscreen, it can take up to an ounce+ of alcohol per 2 cups depending on the stove. If you use methanol (Heet in yellow bottle) it may take a few ml more than ethanol due to the lower heat content of methanol.

I have used esbit. It smells like fish. I've tried several different brands. They all smell like fish. It works fine, but leaves a paraffin like residue on you pot. Did I mention it smells like fish? It will likely take around 15 gm of esbit to boil 2 cups of 60 F water. Since that is roughly the wt of the alcohol that I would use, I changed to alcohol and the slight wt penalty of the bottle to carry it in. The smell of the alcohol evaporates without a trace. Esbit and it's clones always smell fishy. But it is definitely the lightest way to go.

Canister- use it for any longer trips solo and always use it for groups.
Hope this helps,

-Mark

The thruhiker analysis is a great source. Just divide the daily water usage for your group into 2 cup increments to get "days".

With 2 people, hot breakfast, hot drinks and a little soup at lunch, the weight of alchy & gas breaks even at 2 days. (Assuming Gas is twice as efficient as Alchy on fuel, stoves weigh 1 oz vs 3.75 oz, windscreens weigh 1 vs 1.5, and fuel containers weigh 1 vs 4 oz).

Since I also bring 2 kids, the break-even for me is 1 day.
In summer (no hot drinks or soup at lunch), the break-even is 2 days with kids, or 4 days with just 2 people. If I was mostly going out for summer 3 day weekends with 2 people, I'd go with gas. Even solo, the weight savings over 3 days is only 1.4 oz. Well worth the convenience to me.

ps: On a thru-hike, I'd go with alchohol due to the convenience of resupply, and the need to carry two 4 oz fuel containers with gas (ie: when you expect to run out before the next gas resupply point).

My alcohol stove weighs .5 oz, the windscreen is .75 oz, and the fuel bottle is 1 oz, so a total of 2.25 ounces. It'll boil 2 cups of cold water with 2/3 of an ounce.

My BushBuddy weighs 4.75 oz, but uses fuel that I don't carry. As soon as my alcohol fuel adds up to the 2.5 ounce difference, the BushBuddy is the lighter option.

That's not much alcohol. If I have to boil water just 4 times, the BushBuddy is lighter. The bonus is that as soon as I decide to take the BushBuddy, I can boil water as often as I want with no penalty, such as some nice warm water to wash up with. I also don't need to worry about spilling my fuel.

The downside is that (1) it's not quite as fast as the alcohol stove – about 2 to 3 minutes longer to boil water, (2) it does leave some soot on my cook pot, but oh well, and (3) you need good fire building skills in case you have a wet day – although it's easier to get going in the rain than you'd think.

I take issue with the need to have the lowest initial carry weight for one's stove and fuel. While this is necessarily a laudatory goal and the number that gets plugged into (distributed) gear lists, it fails to take into consideration the rate of fuel consumption and how that affects back weight.

Bushbuddy notwithstanding (because it has no fuel weight, technically), at some point in the trip the carry weights (stove+fuel) will equalize. From here on out, the stove with the higher rate of fuel consumption per day will have less carry weight than the more efficient fuel source.

That all said, maybe the better measure of stove carry weight is the average weight you will have per day. The stove with the lower average should be carried.

That all said, after reading the stove efficiency articles for the umpteenth time (they are one of my favorite series here on BPL), I always think about them whenever I think about taking out my canister stove. I always buy 8 oz cans because they are most cost effective, despite the weight penalty.

@Dan – I'd love to do some camping with you where the Bushbuddy is the only stove in the collective packs.

@ Matt – you know where I'll be May 16th thru May 27th, and the Bushbuddy will be the only stove in my pack. Just show up without a stove! :)

We'll see – I have the 50K on the 16th, finals the following week, work after that and then Jacci and I are going hiking (somewhere) the weekend before the 27th. I'll contact you via e-mail.

This probably deserves a whole new thread on its own but I'll just post it in here. Does anyone go backpacking without a "kitchen" at all? You know, just pack food that doesn't require cooking and then no need for a stove or even a pot. It seems like a smart move for me because I've done it three times in the past on 3 and 4 day trips when I still had not purchased a stove or a pot and it was fine. I'll still have my stick of firesteel in case of emergencies when I need to start a fire.
So what are your thoughts on this guys? Does anyone in this forum go without a "kitchen"?
The only drawback I can think of with going stoveless is that you wouldn't be able to melt snow in case you can't find any other source of water. Well, technically, you still could if you put snow in your bottle and sleep with the bottle overnight, but that would probably be uncomfortable.

Sid,

Have you considered making your own alcohol stove to see if it is something that will work for you before purchasing a higher priced system? I use the Supercat alcohol stove (directions to make on line) w/ a homemade windscreen (directions from the Vargo website) from aluminum flashing. It is light, convenient, and best of all cheap.

Does anyone in this forum go without a "kitchen"?

Sid – not a chance. For me, there is a big psychological boost when I cook up a pot of hot beef stew, chicken parmesan veggie pasta, cheeseburger macaroni, chili, or whatever at the end of a long day on the trail. It's also very beneficial on cool evenings to warm you up on the inside. Not to mention my morning coffee!

Also, to get enough calories and a balanced diet from noncooked food, you normally end up carrying heavier food since you can't rehydrate. Maybe it'd be fine for a day or two on a weekend, but I can't see it working well on a long hike.

Dan,

100% agreement on my part also.