Dogs and Leave no trace?

>As for the horse turd verse the cow turd. Cows have 7 stomachs so they remove almost all the nutrients. That’s why their S*** stinks

Cows have 4 stomachs, not 7.

Sorry guys I'm the bad guy here. While I should probably keep my mouth shut I feel I should say something cause I'm the bad guy. I have a 6 Y/O Brittany Spaniel and a 7Y/O Jack Russell and have not once put either one on a leash past the trail head. A good guess is that we have spent upwards 6-700 nites in the back back country including living several months in a snow cave. They go everywhere I do everyday. On the trail Esme our Jack stays with us and is generally good. Chloe runs up and back and side to side for hours on end. Our longest back-country one day trip was pushing 60 miles(I was on my single-speed) Like I said I'm the bad guy. If she poops on the trail I clean it up otherwise we both travel like wild animals tacking wildlife and sleeping in the dirt. Sorry for being honest but I love my dog too much to leash her. Please don't respond to this with What about a bear or coyote's or Blah Blah Blah safety for your dog. I love my dog and take care of her and no she doesn't get all crazy and turn into the devil on the trail. I'm far more afraid of people on the trail than wild or not so wild critters. I am preparing for the AT and both dogs will be there.Have a great day and be nice. A

That's a beautiful dirty dog you've got there.
As long as they're not out of control, keep going and enjoy! I see nothing wrong with what you're doing- the outdoors is where they belong.
It seems a lot of dogs/dog owners are being condemned here due to the behavior of a few.
Have fun.

You love your dog too much to leash her? A number of dogs have been killed in the Columbia River Gorge when they got too close to the crumbly edge of a cliff. The life you save by using a leash may be your dog's!

I love my dog too much *not* to leash him in such places. I'd rather risk my own safety by having a "connector."

In any case, leashes are required in the Columbia Gorge Scenic Area. It's just too crowded for unleashed dogs! If you want to break leash laws, fine; that just means that all dogs will end up being banned in such places.

I can totally see your point on crowded areas. We tend to go where there are no people. You would be surprised how easy it is to step off the map. Alan

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Denis H–National Forests are under the US Dept. of Agriculture, not the Dept. of Interior. That's why the selection of the Secretary of Agriculture (and undersecretaries) is just as important as Interior. Some would like to see the USFS transferred to Interior; those of us who've seen the BLM (Interior) at work in Oregon's forests don't think this would necessarily be an improvement.

Re cow "pies": All ruminants (which include cattle, sheep, goats, deer, elk, moose, bighorn, mountain goat, pronghorn) have four (not seven) stomachs and chew cud. The number of stomachs does not explain why only cattle, among all these other ruminants, leave such a noxious mess behind them!

Horse Manure carries tetanus.

Could someone explain to me why one type of poo is different from another in terms of disease? I certainly see LOTS of marmot and deer poo when I have been out hiking. I suspect that any pile of poo will have lots of bacteria growing in it after it sits for awhile.

Animals that live with man are more likely to have stuff that may affect your health. Truly wild critters not so likely. This is from a wildlife biologist who teaches tracking in the SF bay area.

>>I love my dog and take care of her
>>and no she doesn't get all crazy and
>>turn into the devil on the trail.

How much you love your dog is not relevant nor is the way you think your dog acts. What is relevant is the way that other trail users perceive your dog to be acting.

If your dog approaches my four year old, or approaches me for that matter, and I percieve a danger, I will spray her with pepper spray.

If you're sure of your dogs behavior and are OK with that risk then I'm cool with your dog being off leash.

-Tim-

Ok that was just wrong.

In my mind, if I really wanted to Leave NO Trace (LNT), then I'd stop backpacking. The reality is that we're all just trying to get as close to No Trace as possible while still enjoying the outdoors. For me, I enjoy hiking with my dog, a 6-year-old GSD.

When we hike, I keep her on-leash 95+ percent of the time. The only times I let her off are when we are going up areas that are so steep that it would be dangerous to get wrapped up in a leash, so I pick her pick or pull her up behind me. I don't see anything "natural" about allowing her to be off-leash. Being on-leash trains her to stay with me when we're on the trail.

Denis,
>Animals that live with man are more likely to have stuff that may affect your health. Truly wild critters not so likely. This is from a wildlife biologist who teaches tracking in the SF bay area.

What does more likely mean and affect it how much? I've heard comments like that, just like I've heard that you need to treat all water. After all, it must be called beaver feaver for some reason. I'm not trying to be smart-alecky, but I do wonder if anyone has really looked at this (I assume so), and what the answer is. Please educate me!

Thanks,
Tom

Tim, I could be wrong and I often am but I'm pretty sure using mace in the back country is not consistent with Leave no trace. :( A

I have two small shelties, both of whom I take with me often, off-leash most of the time (unless it's a crowded trail or bear country).

They are herding dogs and stay by my side and have never exhibited aggressive behaivor. Unfortunately, both of them poo right on the trail, so I have to carry doggy bags, but I'm used to it. I confess–if I could train them to poo 25 yards off trail, I wouldn't bother picking it up. There's poo all over the backcountry–after all, animals live there.

Oh, and if someone "perceived" my dogs as a threat–which would be ridiculous–and maced them, they'd get maced right back.

I think out on the trail is where we really approach anarchy in the classic definition of the word… living your life and basing your actions and decisions on what your concience tells you.

Life is a series of choices and we live with the consequences of those choices.

Just try to think it through. I try to remember that the world wasn't created just for me and sometimes my choices effect others.

-Tim-

I “own” and hike with my dog on about half of my hikes, but I’m not going to give you a “my dog is the best most well behaved” dog story, because I think it’s irrelevant for the sake of the argument.

This is an old debate. The most troublesome of the way Tad’s presentation reads and implies for my interpretation, is that all dog and dog owner’s behavior is similar. The dogs, when not barking and out of control, are all slobering and wiping their eye snot on you, while the owner just smiles. I just think that as we all hike our own hike, dogs and dog owners are no different. Please be wary the broad brush.

In the dog training world, a little pepper spray in the face of an ill mannered dog that‘s way out in front of their “owner“ on the trail, could be termed “a correction”.

I look at horse people as my outdoor brethren and try to get along. One thing I can say about my dog as compared to a horse, is that my dog doesn’t leave a trail of bitting horse flies in her wake.

"…which is more then I can say for most horse users…"

Thom, nice deflection!

And to the philosophy of “I love my dog too much to leash her”, I would counter that I love my dog too much to not leash her. Because there might be a concerned parent right around the corner with every right to be protective of a small child. I’ve been around some very close family and friends with this same no leash philosophy, and in reality, I think they were just too lazy to work with and train their dog. It’s a cop out.

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