Dogs and Leave no trace?

Thanks for mentioning cows David!
Yet another large man-made mess.

"Western cattlemen are nothing more than welfare parasites. They've been getting a free ride on public lands for over a century, and I think it's time we phased it out. I'm in favor of putting the public-lands livestock grazers out of business."

from One Life at a Time, Please (Edward Abbey)

He later goes on to advocate open-season hunting on range cattle.
"I realize that beef cattle will not make sporting prey at first. Like all domesticated animals (including most humans), beef cattle are slow, stupid, and awkward. But the breed will improve if hunted regularly…"

Wipe them off the earth!!!

I love the smell of napalm, I mean horse S*** in the morning.

Just a question but do we hate "wild horses" and their turds too. Or does their S*** not stink because we place the WILD in front. Yes I know that horses are not native to the U.S. but I bet you are not either.

As for the horse turd verse the cow turd. Cows have 7 stomachs so they remove almost all the nutrients. That’s why their S*** stinks

I do think there are some areas that they should not be allowed.

As for myself, and probably a lot of the others here too, I don't hate horses. What I hate is seeing a trail that is chopped into a miles-long wet, muddy trench from too much horse traffic and then littered with piles of horse crap every 100 feet along the "trail". What I hate is seeing a lot of horse crap on any trail, really, whether the trail has been destroyed by the horses or not. It's freaking gross and I don't want to have to walk over it. People typically don't let their dogs crap on the trail. Hikers don't crap on the trail. Even cows, though they're responsible for a lot more crap and destruction in some beautiful areas, don't crap exclusively on the trail. Yet horses crap only on the trail, and equestrians never seem to get the message that they're the only ones doing this.

Hating horses is like hating hunters and motorcycle riders IMO. A pointless hatred.

In most cases horse folk don't have a lot of trails open to them anymore so they are concentrated. And *cough* the PCT was designed for horse riders, not just two legged hiker trash…..hence why the grade is SO gentle on the PCT.

One thing over the years I have noticed is how welcoming the horse people are – if you are nice to them. I have been invited to come join their fire on a snowy day, asked if I needed water, food. Simply becuase I followed the "rule" of stepping down off the trail and being nice to them. Talk to them and you would be amazed at how nasty hikers can be to them.

Sure horse poo stinks. Of course it does! It is poo. The good news is if you like long miles you blast past them eventually.

On the other hand, when I am older it would rock to be able to ride a horse if I am hurting too bad to walk anymore. Just saying……

Bottom line is, dogs aren't all that bad in terms of LNT compared to some other things.

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I mostly believe there are no bad dogs just bad owners. There is the occasional non-trainable idiot dog, I guess the same goes for people. Anyhow, I have a dog and I love her. I will also never hike with her for several reasons, not in order:

She is big and highly excitable there is a 100% chance that she will destroy at least 1 piece of my gear. My money is on an incident involving a claw and silnylon.
She smells bad
TICKS
She will chase a critter right off a cliff
She will go right off a cliff for no reason
She is a chocolate lab and will jump in the first body of water she sees, regardless of the outside temperature, now I have a potentially hypothermic, smellier wet dog
Did I mention TICKS
She will bug the living crap out of everyone I am camping with for food and or attention
I went camping to get away from daily responsibility, why would I bring one with me
If I wanted to step in crap and listen to dogs bark I would camp in my back yard

There are probably more reasons but that is a good list.

On the other hand I have seen plenty of well behaved dogs on the trail and I don’t mind a bit. As long as they are well trained.

By the way, Tad, why do you use the quotes around the word owner in your post?

I agree big time on the “horses destroy trails” issue. I often hike at Mammoth Cave National Park. There are very long stretches of trail that are completely destroyed by horses. Some spots have 3 and 4 new trails splitting off and back to the main trail because of horse damage. Over the years the horse damaged trails become to bad for horses so they start taking the alternate trails which all adds up to tearing up more forest. I have also seen the garbage trails left by equestrians. And….. let’s not forget the road apples.

And no, I don't hate horses.

I almost forgot to mention, I have seen on several occasions, human brownie loafs right smack in the middle of the trail. So don't forget to keep your human on a leash while hiking.

I was on one trip where a team member developed altitude sickness. Some riders were kind enough to take him down. Other experiences have been mixed, but minor changes could yield valuable allies.

The excrement problem seems a design-solvable issue. http://www.bunbag.com/ came up first on google. Very reasonable price and I assume there are other options. Similar solutions are required for urban riding. Catch at the source and dispose of properly.

The erosion issue is also seen with bicycles. Bike trails in my area are closed when wet.

Trash: The vehicles for transporting horses tend to suggest a comfortable level of wealth. Enforcement of fines may not deter, but revoking privileges should encourage good behavior (especially for guides).

Daniel, I use the quotes because I can't really say that you or any of us actually OWNS another animal. I find it a odd term, "owner of a dog". Regardless if you "paid" for the animal or not. I haven't "owned" a dog since I was an adult, because I don't own land big enough to let a dog roam free, to come and go at will. I don't believe in caging them up, no matter how large the cage.
I don't want this to get really out of hand, discussing who really owns what. If someone wants to, they should move it to Chaff.
I do like your concept of getting away and leaving the dog behind. That was my original thought, I want to get away from my life in the city and other people don't allow me to.

BTW, Horse turds are disgusting, what happened to the turd bag that hangs behind a horse in the city?

>Travel and Camp on Durable Surfaces
>• Even on a leash, dogs tend to wonder on and off the trail. Most of the time >while hiking it was observed that dogs were not on a leash and even though >staying within site distance of there “owner” (interesting term), they still are >all over the place. The well mannered dogs still move around. This can be >elaborated on (as all the rest of the topics but to save time and effort I think >all of you can add to this in greater breath and detail

So hiking off trail in not LNT? What is the difference between me hiking off the trail and a dog doing it?

>Dispose of Waste Properly
>• How do you deal with the doo? The group agreed that none of us had ever >seen anyone with a dog “deal with the doo”. We have had some very >interesting posts about TP and do you wipe or not (that is how the dog >discussion first got started), and yes dogs don’t wipe, but what about the >doo? One friend said “if they pack it out from the park why not pack it out >from the backcountry “parks”. My response was that I don’t back mine out >so I wouldn’t expect to pack out a dogs. This can be elaborated on (as all >the rest of the topics but to save time and effort I think all of you can add to >this in greater breath and detail

I just don't get the big deal with doo. I understand the wag bags in really high use areas but come on are you really going to pack out doo? I guess food would have to count as some of your base weight then huh?

>Respect Wildlife
>• I had no credible response for this one. Dogs aren’t wildlife but they love >to chase things that are (some dogs might be classified as wildlife). How do >you stop a dog from lifting its leg on a bush (especially when it is not on a >leash)? We assumed that dog urine would probably have the same effect as >a humans, we are asked to go on rocks and other less fragile things. This >can be elaborated on (as all the rest of the topics but to save time and effort >I think all of you can add to this in greater breath and detail

Just the act of hiking on a trail disturbs wildlife. So that argument is not valid not only that are mosquitos not wildlife? Is deet LNT? Am I allowed to slap at a blackfly that is biting me or is that not respecting the wildlife?

>Be Considerate of Other Visitors
>• In the groups opinion this was the one principle least observed.
>• It was noted that most dog owners think that everyone likes dogs. So >everyone enjoys them around. Not so…One example is they think everyone >doesn’t mind a wet, slobbery, snotty nose wiped on there leg, leaving a >huge “slug” trail. One in the group said that this was a common occurrence >on the trail and most “owners” (again, odd term) would just shrug when it >happened. They said “never has an ‘owner’ offered to clean up their pants” >when it happened and it happens regularly. The owners would just give a >trite apology and again shrug. They went on “how disgusted would a dog >‘owner’ be if they had a human wiped their snotty nose on their leg and >then just shrug?” A few “fist-a-cuffs” would probably break out.
>• Barking is something that all had an issue with.

The woods are really big anyone is free to pick up their tent and go some where else if they don't want to be around a dog.

As for barking I'll agree if your dog can't be quiet then he should stay home. And IMO dogs should stay out of trail shelters.

If you really want to "Leave no trace" then don't go hiking at all.

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I believe under the new regulations if you have a concealed carry permit you can now carry a loaded dog on your person in national parks where state law issues such permits. Unless you're very large this will necessarily be limited to smallish dogs.

Or something like that.

Tad, I rather agree with you about "ownership." Sometimes I think my dog "owns" me! However, under our legal system, dogs and other domestic animals are property and have legal owners. I am not the owner of my dog. His owner is Canine Companions for Independence (assistance dogs for the wheelchair bound), who rejected him as unsuitable for an assistance dog but retains ownership. I signed a contract in which I assume all legal responsibility and agreed to live up to certain criteria. Should I no longer be able to care for him, he goes back to CCI, who will find someone else to care for him. There are at least two people (his breeder and my daughter) who have indicated to CCI that they will take him if he is returned, so I'm comforted that my dog will have a wonderful home no matter what happens to me.

Rick, LOL! Yes, you can now take concealed weapons into National Parks, but not dogs, concealed or otherwise.

Mary, I recall a time that "under the legal system" humans had "legal owners". Even though some where very well "cared for".
I still find it odd. That's my last on this subject.

You may not believe me but I could care less. My dog stays on the trail. This is easy to train if you start the dog on the sidewalk in close proximity to the street with one of those extending leashes. My dog has a very clear understanding of the pathway she's on and doesn't deviate from it. She is a German Shepherd though. Germans are definitely goal oriented, challenge seeking dogs. She's kind of no BS on the trail. When she sees another person approaching she stops and looks at me. At that point I signal to her to come and then point down and right. She comes back and walks 2 feet behind and right of me until I tell her otherwise. She doesn't give passing people or dogs a second thought unless I tell her it's okay. She's not interested in chasing animals in the least. In fact she does the opposite when she sees them. She usually stops, stands at attention, and assesses whether or not the animal is a threat. Again though, that's a defensive trait bred into Germans. Lastly (I expect that people will call BS on this) she doesn't go to the bathroom (number 1 or 2) without my permission. This is also a product of training her on the sidewalk in an urban environment. She doesn't need to go to the restroom constantly like many dogs. I decide when and where and she goes on command.

In short, dogs are a reflection on their owners. People that do a crappy job raising them get crappy dogs. People that know how to train a dog and are loving and caring to it get an extremely loyal, well behaved best friend for life. I'm convinced German Shepherds are the best dogs in the world. They are brilliant, athletic, friendly, and loyal to a fault. They pick up on things EXTREMELY quick. Other breeds I recommend as trail dogs are Australian Cattle Dogs, Goldens, Labs, Rottweilers, Border Collies, and Dobermans. All of these dogs will require a lot of effort and dedication. They aren't feed and be happy dogs. Any dog that's going to be worth a crap requires lots of attention and good training.

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>>and around the corner comes a big German Shepherd,
>>off leash of course. it starts barking like crazy,
>>and charges at me. i got my trekking poles up in
>>front of me and start screaming NO! at it at the
>>top of my lungs, while it barks like crazy
>>and bares its teeth and pretty much goes nuts.

Pepper spray.

-Tim-

Dave T, Sorry to hear about your negitive experience. Having raised multiple Rotts and Akitas I understand and respect others being apprehensive regarding these larger breeds. Just the size of these larger breeds can be intimidating even when properly trained and well behaved. Uncontrolled and aggresive is unexceptable.

My little border collie is the best hiking companion I've had. She is tough, smart, well behaved and has endless endurance. She eats (and poops) alot less then a larger breed dog which is a plus regardless of which of us is carrying her food.

All dogs, regardless of size, need to be adequatly trained and well behaved. Dog owners need to be sensitive to fellow trail users.

Some things I do to mitigate my dog's impact.

A Have him carry a dog pack with his food, sleeping and water gear.
This really works, especially for enthusiastic dogs, to
slow them down. Even my 25 mile per day, hunt all
night on her own if allowed, coonhound stuck
close when her pack was on. This is saying something.
Just keep loading them up till the proper pace is established. This is of course assuming they have been
training and are fit.

B Bury waste. Just like for humans. If you leave it exposed
it will spread disease via flies or by water sheeting over
the ground carrying it into water supplies during the next big storm.

C Electric training collar. This can stop all kinds of
nonsense like chasing wild animals, recall issues, aggression, etc. THE important thing is to learn to
use it right or it will become a crutch, or worse, ignored.
Find out all you can about them before you try them out
so you have the best chance of success. We called ours
the "fun collar" because it gave freedom with responsibility. Amaze your friends when your dog recalls
from 1/2 mile away just from a blast on your whistle.

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Man's Best Friend…where else do they belong other than by your side. Have you ever seen a happier dog than one going down the trail with his owner? You should see how excited mine get when I get their backpacks out!

You can argue LNT and dogs all you want…but the dog "owners" that don't practice LNT with their dogs probably don't practice it for themselves either. My fiance and I always backpack with our two dogs…and wouldn't have it any other way.

One bad experience we had not too long ago…two dogs cut down several switchbacks and attacked our dogs…the owner was obviously hiking with their two dogs off leash. After a few intense minutes (which seemed much longer), we fended "Bear" off and none were injured. Now I hike with pepper spray hanging on my shoulder strap…hopefully I won't need to use it.

Bottom line…irresponsible people = bad dogs.

On the dog "owner" subject…I often refer to myself as "Sparky's human"…I think I may be the one who's "owned". Or maybe it's mutual.

Dave wrote
think you might be extrapolating for effect a little. i doubt anyone here "hates" horses. i think they are pretty cool.

Yeah, I am.

I do agree that dogs should either well behaved or left at the house. I Have had the same experence as you with a german shepard. Some people just do not think about how thier actions(dogs action) can effect others or they just don't care. Dog P*** off the trail does not bother me but dog p*** on the trail is just nasty. I know my bias is shinning thru but horse p*** just does not bother me.

Craig said “know that locally this is very much due to the fact that the equestrian community has $$$. Picking up all that crap would really ruin the pretty day, wouldn't it?”

I’m not sure this is a social economic issue. Then again I’m broke so I can’t speak for the “well to do” folks. My theory is this:

We backpackers enjoy the outdoors and pristine wildlife. We like it so much we want other backpackers to enjoy it, so naturally we pick up after ourselves. I don’t want to speak for everyone but when I hike all day and carry everything on my own back that I need to survive I feel a sense of accomplishment when I make camp. I feel a pride of ownership “I earned this pristine site I worked hard for it”. (not in the sense that I feel I own the land).

Equestrians may not receive the same “self accomplishment” feeling when they get to camp. After all, they didn’t have to carry anything or even walk. They can load up with heavy previsions or a minimal set of previsions and exert the same amount of effort. So why not bring a case of beer and a bunch of steaks? And maybe since you are riding up high on a horse and not walking, you don’t even notice horse crap and hoof damage to the trail.

Right or wrong It’s all about perspective.

It's not the horse that drives me nuts on the trail.
One thing I don't like is the fact that you have to make an effort just to get around them, with them having the right of way.
I also really don't like the fact that you can have a horse on a trail and not a bike???
Then the trails that are shared by bike and horse are so messed up by the horses that both hikers and the bikers have to make a completly differnt trail next to it because the trail is not able to be used in most places.

I'm sure 1 horse would do the same damage as 1000 bikes going over a trail.

A dog trained not to pee on the rug is not the same as a highly trained dog which does not stray out of its master's eyesight and heels on command. The latter are testaments to their master's patience and love.

No matter how much you love and humanize your dog, they are still animals and will react on instincts that many owners never knew their dogs had. If your animal did bite someone and depending on where it happens, it could be quarantine or destroyed. When the "I've never seen him act this way" scenario occurs, a face full of pepper spray should be considered a good outcome.

Please consider carefully before bringing your dog on the trail. If your dog is not fully trained and you simply must bring it, please use a leash.

Thanks!

-Tim-