winter sleep system

"Robert, Robert, Robert . . . (Joshua is obviously able to carefully and safely learn snow shelter use, but not only are some readers of this site ignorant, some are incredibly, unbelievably stupid, and if sent out into the snowy wilderness with only a shovel, not all of them are coming back alive."

This wins the prize for the dumbest thing I've read on the internet this week.

It's been a while since I've read so much condescending, arrogant, self-righteous drivel.

Joshua,

Question: A while back I asked about the effectiveness of pairing a patagonia DAS and micropuff pants with a REI Nooksack 35 degree sleeping bag (primaloft sport) wondering what teperature that combination would get me down to. I would be wearing the following (if I was fully bundled, I fit in the bag with all this on, by the way):

patagonia cap2 top and bottoms
patagonia R1 hoody
Ems softshell pants (schoeller dryskin extreme I think)
patagonia essenshell jacket
polartec 100 weight fleece balaclava
wool hat
smartwool moutaineering socks
feathered friends down booties

I would be on a MEC winter evazote pad on top of a thermarest prolite 3/4, inside a goretex bivy, in a MSR twin sisters. what temp do you think this will keep me comfortable down to?

Answer: REI's current 35 Nooksack uses Primaloft MXL, a Primaloft variant developed exclusively for REI. I haven't tested this bag but, I did test the 2005 (black and gold) Nooksack 35 Primaloft Sport bag. The insulation was one layer of 5 oz/yd2 Primaloft Sport, each for the top and the bottom. That amount of insulation provided an average EN 13537 rating of 35F Extreme and 55F LLimit. It is prudent to assume your Primaloft Sport Noonsack is similarly misrated. Your MEC pad is R-Value 2.06 and your Prolite 4 is 3.2 for a total of 5.26. An R-Value 5 sleeping pad is used in all EN13537 ratings.

EN13537 ratings assume .6 clo of clothing worn in the bag. Your specified base layers approximately equal this amount. Your Patagonia DAS provides 1.9 clo and your Patagonia MP pants provide and additional .8 clo. This additional 2.7 clo total insulation will increase your sleeping bag's LLimit rating by ~27F and the Extreme rating by approximately ~37F. Your high loft insulation and Nooksack would yield an EN13537 rating of -2F Extreme and 28F LLimit. An accurately rated 35F LLimit bag would likewise increase the rating by ~27F to 8F LLimit.

Maybe I'll take my down bag after all. My Nooksack is the 2005 model, so your testing info is accurate.

My advice to a beginner with a collapsed snow shelter is to dig it again, it'll keep you warm, and it will be a lesson you will never forget…

Two weekends ago our local Sierra Club made its annual Missouri Ozark winter backpack. It was about 16 degrees and windy and no snow. Last week it touched zero at night and the nearest snowdrift was still about 150 miles north of us. So tell me again how snow shelters are going to solve my winter camping problems?

I didn’t make that last winter trip but I know what I want the next time I do get to go. We may not have enough snow but we have plenty of firewood.

Kifaru tarp/tipi and stove backpacking combos start at about three pounds and probably would come in at between 5.5 and 7.5 pounds for an completely enclosed tent set up for deep winter solo work. Subtract out the weight of all that fuel and the other stove that you would have carried for snow melting and cooking and just use some the gazillions of tons of BTUs that are provided for free in any forest. We are not above tree line. Total pack weight should remain about the same or close to it. Think about it-hot coffee and warm boots in the morning as you dry out your sleeping bag. And packing nothing wet and heavy.

There is less feedback information on their web site, but Titanium Goat backpacking tipi/stove setups come in even lighter by a pound or two than Kifaru. Their Vortex cylinder stove at less than two pounds is very interesting. So would be one of their tipis made with thermal/solar reflective Reflect-Tex fabric.

http://www.kifaru.net http://www.titaniumgoat.com

These little stoves are not meant to run all night so you still need your winter sleep system. Mine is a LuxuryLite V-bag inside a Big Angus with two foam pads.

I just have to say one thing about this old topic:

The usefulness and strength of a snow shelter is dependent on the quality and quantity of so you have in your area!

That being said;

Mike C. , where the heck is that artic on building snow shelters!?!? You've had like two years to finish!

Come on Mike! Where is that article about building snow shelters in 90 minutes with one person?

Living in Wisconsin, and having received our first big snow dump of the season, the renewed life of this thread caught my eye (as it predated my membership).

I too would like to see an article by Mike or others regarding winter snow shelters. As an aside, Allen & Mike's books are still available on Amazon, as are several others that deal specifically with snow shelters. Search "winter camping". A bit of winter reading is now headed my way, and if nothing else should make for some fun in the snow with my boys.

I've had all sorts of smart alec comments run through my mind regarding a couple of the posts, but this idiot-newbie-soon-to-be-dead-winter-camper-wanna-be will hold his tongue…

EDIT: After further searching, I did find this article (not by Mike) here on BPL:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/igloo_building_for_fun_and_shelter_part_1a.html

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/igloo_building_for_fun_and_shelter_part_2.html

I trimmed down my RidgeRest so that it would fit inside my sleeping bag. It is pretty narrow… maybe 13" at the top and tappers down to the foot. It is also considerably shorter than original because I trimmed the length to just cover where my body lies inside the bag. I roll around at night and it has never proven to be a problem. My body stays on it on side/stomach or back sleeping.

I use a "girlie" model 20" x 66" Prolite which is the 1" thick self-insulating pad. The self-inflator is 17oz and my butchered up RidgeRest is 5oz. Total weight is 22oz and according to Cascade Designs the R value should be around R-5.4 It is plenty warm for my cold weather activities and down right luxurious spring/fall. It also has more safety margin than a 2.5" air pad and I don't like levitating on the bigger air pads anyway.

I've been building quinzies for a couple of years now and I even own Mike's great winter camping book, a great resource.

The one think I'm curious about is Mike's claim that he can build a quinzie for himself in 1.5 hours total using all the 'tricks'. I'm a bit perplexed by this as it normally takes an hour for the snow to set up. Personally the shortest it’s ever taken me to build a 9’ diameter quinzie with 12” thick walls using 18” snow depth is 3 hours. Then again I have to assume that the snow Mike is used to playing in is much deeper and much denser than the sugar sand snow we tend to get up here in upper Minnesota.

I'd like to hear Mike's take on this and learn his 'tricks' so I too can get my quinzie building time cut in half. ;)

I don't try quinzies, but here in California we build snow caves. The detail there is that you need a good snow slope with deep snow. If the slope is very steep, like 25 degrees or more, you will have potential avalanche risk. But if the slope is 15 to 20, it helps. As you dig into the slope and shovel the snow out the door, it will tumble away on its own, and that saves a lot of work.

How long the snow takes to "set up" is quite variable. With good snow, it can set up within a few minutes.

What is very important is the shovel. One person traveling solo might have only a small shovel, and this will be a problem. A group of people together might have a big one ("the grain scoop"). The big one is useful for moving a lot of snow, but the small one is useful when you get inside and need to groom the ceiling and walls.

–B.G.–

Thanks for the insight Bob but I'm specifically interested in hearing about Mike C's aforementioned 1.5 quinzie.

I must say that I'm jealous that you have snow that will set up after shoveling within a few minutes. ;)

I agree that that using a large grain shovel is a great way to move snow around fast when building a quinzie. Whenever I’m base camping I like to use a grain shovel combined with my pulk sled to move and pile snow. That being said it’s rather impractical (and heavy) to carry a grain shovel when out backpacking and getting in a decent amount of miles. For those situations I think most of us are going to have to stick with a lightweight collapsible avalanche shovel.

Well it looks like Mike C isn't going to respond. :(

Mike, being a NOLS instructor, is often in the mountains with a group for a couple weeks at a time.

I know that Jim.

I'm just leaving Mike a bread crumb trail so that when he's back he'll have plenty to do! :)