winter sleep system

Would you survive, I think it's likely. Would you sleep well? Probably not.

I've pushed a 15 deg down bag with good double pad (thermarest/closed cell) and Micropuff jacket/warm clothes down to -5 before and catnaps are doable but there is no way I'm sleeping through a long winter night.

Plus if you're really pushing it without a lot of winter experience (I don't know if you are), it's much nicer to have a bag that will take you down to your actual temp and use your insulated clothes to cover the fact that you might be wet getting into your tent, your bag will lose loft or a storm will roll though and drop the temp 20 deg further than you thought.

I've got friends that push 32 deg bags to -30 deg conditions for naps but you better bring a full complement of skills to winter and frankly you'll sleep better with a toasty warm bag. Winter nights are long and a few extra ounces of down is light insurance although I know it can be expensive buying a new bag.

I have a fair amount of winter experience, in some pretty deep cold, so I know the tricks for getting the maximum amount of warmth out of what you've got with you.

That being said, I haven't been out overnight in the winter in a while,and I will probably have to relearn some things.

I do have a 0 degree down bag, which is a bit old (probably a 15 degree bag at this point) that I have taken down to the negative teens with a syntheic parka and fleece pants in a shelter (I was not cozy, but I got through it)

I should have mentioned, Nooksack is primaloft sport. It get awfully damp on the west side of the cascade crest, and I guess I'm trying to take that into account. Most everyone here reports significant loss of loft in down bags in the winter after a couple of days.

It's just going to depend on temps, weather and how long you're wanting to be out and how much you want to sleep vs waking up cold. I have no qualms about taking my summer stuff out in the winter but I also know that I might not get a whole lot of sleep or worst case have to walk out at night or dig a cave to stay warm enough.

If you've got the experience and you feel safe, go for it.

Also if you can make yourself another synthetic overbag (or buy one), that's probably not a bad option either. Clothing frankly is a poor way to make up for sleeping bag warmth weight wise except when you are carrying it anyway. If you had to choose 24oz jacket and 12oz pants vs 36oz more sleeping bag, the bag will keep you much warmer at night. But we all do it because it can be nice or necessary to the rest of the trip or just because it's a heck of a lot cheaper than buying more sleeping bags!

I'd say try it on a SHORT trip where bailout to your vehicle is easy and fast. If it works, it works. If not you've only been miserable for one night.

In the /70s I used a cheap polyester fill 3-season mummy with wool longies and polyester quilted underwear in -5 F in a tent and was fine. I did have a balaclave as well. The -5 F temp was the official temp 500 feet higher than our camp so we may have had a -8 F night.

Eric

I have thought about buying a synthetic quilt to layer over my bag, although I don't know if the weight savings are going to be worthwhile over my down bag. plus, $$.

usually, The only extra clothes I take are my DAS,a balaclava,mittens, extra socks, and booties. I figured if I add the pants, well, that's not much more weight (14 oz), and it could make it possible to take the light bag.

Anyone know if there is a rough rule of thumb for how many degrees of warmth are added by a parka and insulated pants?

My personal suggestion is to carry a bag/pad combo for the coldest temperatures you expect to see, and use your parka with the bag for conditions you *didn't* expect, such as a cold snap, extreme fatigue, etc. That means either the bag should have enough girth to get the parka inside, or you use a bivy sack over the bag and lay the parka over top of the bag inside the bivy.

For winter use, extra insulation in the pad may very well be worth more than extra insulation in the bag. Just a thought.

Hello all,
Did a few tests last winter on sleep systems with another BPL member, temps were down to -20F camped on snow in a floorless Hex.

Was using a zero degree 725 fill bag, VBL and wearing a down sweater, Primalid, wool tights and softshell pants, wool base top, stretch nylon top, gloves
Foam mattress and Prolite 4 full length pad.
Slept ok

Partner was using a 32 degree down bag inside a BPL 180 UL quilt, 2 foam pads, Thermolight emergency bivy, wearing Cocoon top and pants, homemade vest made out of Thermolight material as a VBL top. Mid weight wool base layer and wind shirt.
Brian slept chilled, but survived the night.

Guessing inside temperatures of the tent probably were closer to -10 at the coldest point in the evening, we ate a substantial amount of calories and consumed warm drinks before retiring.

After discussing gear choices Brian's system would have been more comfortable around zero for him, but he survived the night, thinking I was "just OK" right at those temperature and slept through the night.

Hope this helps out

Thanks Jim, that is helpful. You mention both using VBLs, how did you work that with wearing clothes in the bag?

what did your partners system weigh? Was your obviously warmer system noticably heavier?

I would probably be using a full skin winter tent with a solid inner body, which I suspect adds 10-15 degrees of warmth.

I was thinking about wilderness trekking school when I thought about this system. I remember that many of you used insulated clothes in conjunction with your sleep systems. Chris Plesko mentions the inefficiencies inherent with using clothing as part of your sleep system. I'm coming from more of a climbing background where you need extra layers for sitting around belaying, but if you're not climbing, just snowshoeing or skiing, does it make sense to bring the insulated clothes? why did you all structure your sleep systems with the use of clothes, rather than the more weight efficient method of carrying more heavily insulated bags?

I figure you're the guy to ask, since that trip was at least in part my inspiration for trying this out.

edited to get Jim Baily's name right. Sorry man, not sure which of my invisible friends named Brian I was talking to.

Similar discussion re: Marmot Hydrogen: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=15972

Thanks Matt,

I don't know anything about the hydrogen, what it is rated, whether it is down or synthetic, etc. so that thread wasn't really on my radar.

also, I'm rubbish at finding anything on the forums.

Just another experience comment. I've found a good jacket (like the DAS) to add quite a bit to the sleep system however I haven't found a huge benefit in bringing the insulated pants on most trips. The jacket is nice on summits or at belays but the pants mostly reside in my pack until sleeping time and then in an idea world I'd rather just have a sleeping bag that was that much heavier instead of the pants. I've yet to experience weather that required me to move in my insulated pants but maybe this winter! Haha ;) I do need some full side zip pants for that purpose since I'm not taking my shoes or boots off if it's that cold.

Christopher,
what do you think, 10-15 degrees for the DAS? I'm guessing it could be worth even more.

I remember, the coldest night I ever spent out (negative teensish) I was wearing a synthetic parka, lighter weight than the DAS in my 0 degree bag. Iknew it was going to get cold so I battened down the hatches, cinched the hood and the draft collar, put on my fleece balaclava and pulled up my hood. I woke up a couple of hours later so hot that I thought I was on fire. I unwisely opened everything up, took of the jacket and balaclava, and fell back to sleep. I spent the rest of the night tryng to get warmed back up.

My wet leather boots were two blocks of ice the next morning, and we took my shells and stood them up like a snowman, they were frozen solid where they were hanging in the lean-to

I guess thermoregulation can trump insulation sometimes.

I wouldn't count on more than 15 deg personally although I haven't done extensive testing with the DAS. I'll let you know when it gets colder I guess. I have such a hard time bringing the DAS over the Cocoon or Skaha Plus because they're so much lighter.

It's a baffled 800+ down bag, shelled with Pertex Quantum, iirc. Its rated to 32 F, and retails for $309 (I got mine for $209 on closeout). The hood is excellent and there is no velcro to scruff your chin on. The zipper locks without a velcro tab, and the hood has a nice ring of down (like a fur fringe on a jacket hood) to protect your face. My review on Trailspace – http://www.trailspace.com/gear/marmot/hydrogen/review/13781/

One more thing – test this in a controlled environment first. When I took my Hydrogen to 11 degrees, I had my dedicated winter bag (-20 down) in the tent with me, just in case.

Hey Joshua,
To answer your question about clothing we were not sure how far we would be traveling with deep snow fall we had this past winter and figured we might have to sit around in the Hex for awhile and did not want to be confined to just our bags, seemed to make sense for us to also have warm clothing in conditions that cold for safety as well.

VBL liner was a tough call with clothing system that I was using on this outing, ended up with down jacket over VBL for additional torso warmth while sleeping and was a bit of a challenge keeping this in place.

Would have been better off wearing synthetic cocoon hoody as part of overall system and not having moisture issues to worry about or down jacket shifting during the night.

Found out that Brian's layering system worked really great for our test, just could have used a little more feathers and/or synthetic loft.

He was wearing vbl clothing, then down bag with synthetic quilt on top in an Adventure medical bivy and had little moisture issues in the am. Would really like to try DAS as Christopher mentioned for combined clothing/sleeping system.

Our base weights varied on this trip, I was heavy at 17lbs carrying Hex, stove & cookware while Brian was carrying a 12lbs base weight. This trip was one of many we took after WT3 and we were both pretty fired up about using clothing as part of our overall sleep system. If you want to take a look at our gear lists PM me and will see if I can dig that up.

Be away from BPL for a few days, have a torrential downpour to hike in now!
Cheers
Jim

35 degree bag, puff pants and jacket? And you are gunna be in a tent?

You should be fine. You might be cold in the morning, but some folks get cold winter camping in -40 bags.

Some statagies:

* Eat like a pig before going to bed
* Take a snickers bar into bed, eat it if you get cold
* If you need it, bring a hot water bottle to bed
* Wear booties
* wear a neck gaiter
* take a good pad
* do sit ups if you get cold

If it turns out that if doesn't work, no big deal – a good lesson. Right on for trying something bold.

I have taken a 25 degree Mont-Bell bag down to -10 by wearing a Mont-Bell Thermaprap parka and Thermawrap pants and sleeping on an Insul-Mat Aero-Gel pad.
Plenty warm and comfy.

Ed

Thanks Mike, I figure that I'll take a crack at it in a couple of months, when we get snow in the mountains. If it doesn't work, well, I'm not likely to die, and then I'll know definitively whether it works or no.

part of the reason I'm planning on trying this is my winter tent is so dam heavy. I haven't used it in a couple of years, I am trying to save weight everywhere else that I can.

Maybe I'll save my pennies and buy a Big Sky Montana (assuming I could get it this winter, or ever) or a Hilleberg, and then if this works out I can really save some weight.

Wait a minute?!?!?

You are taking a tent in the winter? What – You wanna be cold???

What is all that snow for? A snow shelter is warmer, and all it weighs is the weight of your shovel. Jeeeech, ditch the tent completely!

I go out winter camping in the northern rockies (colder than the PNW) and I never (EVER) take a tent. Sometimes I will take a silnylon tarp. I usually go out for 10 or more days. 19 days is my record, in januray – in the Winds – NO tent – EVER!

Here's a link to an instructional book:
http://www.amazon.com/Allen-Really-Backcountry-Revised-Better/dp/0762745851/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1222622422&sr=8-2

Ditch the tent, and STILL take the 35 degree bag!

Mike,
19 days is impressive, even for a summer trip!

How many times did you move…and dig a new cave?

And I assume you carried all food, as resupply logistics would be tough. Do you recall your food weight per day?
I'm wondering about your caloric requirements for winter.

Thanks.

(my apologies for the thread tangent….but sometimes when the opportunity presents itself….)

I don't work off of calories, I work off of Pounds Per Person Per Day (PPPPD).

For winter, I take 2 PPPPD. 19 days = 38 pounds of food.

And when you dig a full cave, you will usually base camp for a few nights.

But – A dog-house (solo cave) is fast, and I'll do one of them and move the next morning.

A two person snow shelter (using all the tricks) should take about an hour and a little more. Y'figure a tent takes 20 minutes, right?

A simple tarp is fast too. THere are tricks to setting that up with a pretty tight (snug) fit. There is a drawing in the ALLEN & MIKE'S REALLY COOL BACKCOUNTRY SKI BOOK.

Mike,
Thanks for the details.

Maybe…..I'll consider some winter camping….

Maybe.

This is thread drift that I can get behind. I suppose you can argue that shelter/sleeping systems are all part of the same continuum

Thom Darra and I have been PMing about the MSR Twin sisters as an alternative to my winter tent (which by the way: 14 lbs with stakes, that’s more than my summer base weight by a couple of pounds) Mike, your suggestion for digging a snow cave is interesting. Let me ask some questions.

You mentioned using one in the winds; how about with the wet, wet snow of the cascades?

Do you use a bivy? Gore-tex or momentum (or equivalents)?

When you mention a tarp, are you using a flat tarp or a pyramid type shelter?

Anyone who has used floorless type shelters in the PNW have some input on their relative efficacy?

I may have to pick up that backcountry ski book.

Re: MIKE CLELLAND: “You are taking a tent in the winter? What – You wanna be cold??? What is all that snow for? A snow shelter is warmer, and all it weighs is the weight of your shovel. Jeeeech, ditch the tent completely!” ANOTHER POSTER: “Maybe…..I'll consider some winter camping….Maybe.” I’m no expert, and certainly not a “BPL Staff Member,” but I think Mike Clelland’s advice is dangerous nonsense for people who have never been snow camping before. To support my position, I point out that virtually EVERY “moving” (as opposed to base camp) snow trip guided by AMGA or IFMGA certified guides uses tents or tarps, they don’t dig new snow caves every night. Since I am not a certified guide, perhaps a quote from the 7th Edition, “Mountaineering, The Freedom of the Hills,” will have some authority: “Snow caves are best suited to locations where climbers can burrow into a snow-covered hillside…. The weight of a collapsed snow-cave roof could cause serious injury to people underneath.” (Page 55) I’ve built and slept in snow caves and igloos, and the effort is 5 to 20 times the effort to put up a tent. I’ve also slept in snow trenches, snow pits, tree wells, and under logs, and those emergency shelters are very cold.