Therm-a-Rest NeoAir Pads

I just posted my review Here.

Anyone know why Reviews don’t show in Threads or Recents Posts?
Policy or Oversight?

nm

David,
Perhaps I am stretching it a bit to think it should perform in a 25°F environment, but in my three season world that is not uncommon. I'm not intentionally going out in a snow storm, or onto frozen ground, as one would anticipate for the winter season. But in September and October 35° ground and 25° air is common.

When looking at the Thermarest specs, they think a Prolite at R 2.2 is adequate for three seasons. Extending that to the Neoair with R 2.5 seems reasonable, at least to me. And remember, I'm also on a 1/4" closed cell foam pad underneath, supplementing it by R 1.

The bag alone is under-rated for this situation. But the sleep system is not. The Cocoon and UL Down Pants by themselves weigh more than the bag. By massively eliminating cold from the ground, I slept fine, which says to me that the top components of my system work as planned.

Now all I have to do is find a product that better handles cold ground, and that is light and comfortable.

I'm hoping others with the Neoair will get out there and share experiences. Perhaps with a thermometer beside them, and comments on their sleep systems as well. And maybe, when the heavens part, we will get a BPL Review as well.

Thank you for your comments. This is a tough nut to crack.

Thanks, Greg, for the review! If I get the NeoAir, I also will be using it underinflated and in similar conditions. High in the Rockies, nights can be well below freezing even in mid-summer.

I figured there's a reason that Gossamer Gear recommends their Thinlight pad be used in conjunction with the NeoAir. It's not just because they're trying to sell Thinlights (they're currently sold out), because they will be selling the NeoAir also. The combination is still much lighter than your normal insulated air pad.

nm

"By massively eliminating cold from the ground, I slept fine, which says to me that the top components of my system work as planned."

I'm not sure this makes sense. You might have also been warm had you substituted the 40F sleeping bag for a 0F bag, but I don't think this would necessarily prove that the pad was fine.

Still now that's a couple of reports that suggest the neoair's temp rating is not as high as claimed. I'll definitely take a foam pad when I test mine next week.

Nia –

"By massively eliminating cold from the ground, I slept fine, which says to me that the top components of my system work as planned."

I'm not sure this makes sense. You might have also been warm had you substituted the 40F sleeping bag for a 0F bag, but I don't think this would necessarily prove that the pad was fine.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It wasn't just a matter of just staying warm. I was trying to find the weak link in a minimal system. Eliminating the heat loss below allowed me to confirm the bag and clothes above were adequate. And that the Neoair was inadequate.

Without a decent pad below, I don't think even a 0° bag would offset a cold shoulder and hip. Unless you roll a lot. Been there, done that.

Hi Greg!

It sounds like you put the CCF foam pad *under* the neoair? Is that correct? If so, it wouldn't really have been doing a whole lot for you.

Like you, I would have expected the NeoAir to handle 25 degrees *with* a CCF pad… but with the pad on top of the NeoAir.

Can you confirm your setup?

(And are you interested in selling your NeoAir?)

Ashley,
Yes, the CCF was under the Neoair.

The Thermarest people tout the "radiant barrier" as one of the magical elements in the mattress. I did not want to interfere with that, so the CCF went underneath. When I use a CCF with my Clearview it goes on top.

(Sure, just for you. I'll even throw in the stuff sack, an aftermarket item, oddly enough. I've lost your email so I'll PM.)

nm

OK thanks Greg.

I'm not convinced whether the 'radiant barrier' actually does a whole lot. Marketing spin? I'd have thought the effect was pretty small, but I guess it must help a bit. Who knows?

I'm also unsure whether the NeoAir is going to be worth it for me. I'm fairly happy with my Ether Thermo, but would happily drop 7 ounces from my pack weight if worked just as well (or better!). You never know until you test it yourself. At least you've given it a go with your actual sleep system. You could always try it again with the CCF pad on top.

(Will wait for a PM if you're still wanting to offload your pad)

David,

Actually now that you mention it, I can't find anything official which specifies a temperature rating for the neoair. Is there a formula for converting r-value of a sleeping pad to a "standard" rating?

I recally Jerry Goeller reporting use of his prototype version down in to the 20s.

All I was trying to say, and perhaps not very clearly, is that some have been cold with the neoair around the low end of 3-season temperatures. As such I will want some extra insulation when I first test the neoair in that range.

David,
I just found THIS a, You Tube video where the rep say something like “good down to freezing”.

I assume he means air temperature, indicating his (and Thermarest’s) idea of 3 Season is much more conservative than mine. I don’t think the JMT in September would qualify.

And as you suggested, I have down-rated a product not intended for my range of use. I did state that at warmer temperatures it may do much better. I hope that proves to be the case, as Thermarest has been, and will continue to be, a leader in this field.

I’m curious where you saw the 30° rating. I want to know where I missed it. I’m also on the hunt for what defines the low end of 3 Season temperatures. I’d appreciate any and all references.

Thanks.

Exped suggests for their R2.5 mat a minimum temperature of -2c, 28f.
That would be colder than I could tolerate ( I am talking comfort not survival…) so I would not use an R2.5 mat under 0c , 32f.
Maybe an easier way of looking at this is that the Neo is meant to be just a little bit warmer than the Prolite(R2.2) but far from the Prolite Plus (R3.8)
Franco

> I'm not convinced whether the 'radiant barrier' actually does a whole lot. Marketing spin?
> I'd have thought the effect was pretty small, but I guess it must help a bit. Who knows?

Definitely marketing spin. Sigh.

Cheers

removed – wrong thread

Marketing spin?

If so, and assuming that the manufacturer stated R-Value of 2.5 is correct, how does the Neoair achieve a 2.5 R-value vs the stated R-Value of 1.0 for the Big Agnes Clearview and uninsulated Aircore pads for example? (Or a Wal-Mart blow-up mattress)

It sounds like a Montbell #5 might have been a bit on the light side for this test as well, just IMO.

> how does the Neoair achieve a 2.5 R value vs the stated R-Value of 1.0 for the Big Agnes Clearview

The "radiant barrier" bit is marketing spin. The small air cells are not.

…I was never that warm using Space Blankets anyway ;)

I'm surprised that the small air cells would increase the R-Value that much by themselves though.

Now, Cascade designs is not Wal-Mart…

It looks like they (honest outdoor-loving people, you think?) spent quite a bit of time and resources on R & D and manufacturing superfluity for just “marketing spin” ;)

Consider the ‘bubble-wrap’ radiant barriers used in homes (and in pot cozy’s, etc.), which are usually less than 3/8″ thick and claim (effective) R-values of as much as R-14.9. Hmm… Marketing spin? Sure. But can they actually have an R-14.9 “effect” on a house. Sure. That is, when used properly and under ideal circumstances.

Now, if you underinflate an Exped Downmat to the point where you are virtually touching the ground, your hip will ikely get cold. This is due to conductive heat loss. The strategy employed in the Neoair is meant to specifically combat convective heat loss common in air mattresses. There are many ways to loose heat which are well addressed in numerous excellent articles here.

I would suppose that people who have successfully incorporated (a.k.a. properly use) other uninsulated air mats into their sleep systems will likely gain a small degree of increase in heat retention and loose a couple ounces of weight off of their packs for the same given applications. We are at least beginning to explore this out anecdotally. I don’t think there is currently a lighter functional option for any air mattress, at 9 oz.

On a practical note, I would like to try, “wrapping” the Neoair pad in a thin 1/8″ pad, such as the GG Thinlight to cover the sides of the pad all the way around. Without going into the science, I believe this would have a rather noticeable effect on it’s ability to be effective against somewhat colder temperatures.

Has anyone tried this with a Big Agnes Clearview? They are relatively inexpensive (what isn't?) and would potentially create a lighter torso-length air-pad.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you could come up with a 5 oz. net weight, by utilizing the tapered end of a Mummy pad.

As a test, I would be willing to donate a pad, if someone is willing to do the MYOG project! I would probably use a rectangular pad so that we could each have half…I should probably start a new thread for this.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=20437&skip_to_post=162970#162970

(I posted this to Backpacker.com earlier. Added a bit for here.)

I picked up my Neo Air today and am very impressed.

Mine weighs 14.5 oz (checked on two scales which said the same thing) so it is a half ounce off. I can live with that. I am blown away at how small it is. It is the size of a quart Nalgene bottle. I measured it rolled at 7.5 inches long by 3.5 inches in diameter. And this is after blowing it up a couple times. I get only 71 in of length by my tape measure though.

I of course am a huge fan of the BA Insulated Air Core pads. I am testing a UL pad for MontBell, the Comfort UL 180. Here is a shot of the pads together. The Comfort UL is almost the same length as the Neo, while the IAC is 6 in longer than them. (Actually more in “real life”.)

My weight of the Comfort UL is 19.3 oz. It is only one inch thick. It is 70 in long. I have no idea what the R-value is of it. It is one of the most compact self-inflators I have used.

My Long Rectangular IAC weighs 26.3 oz and has an R-value of 4.1. It is 2-1/2 in thick and is wonderful to sleep on. It is a true 78 in long.

The Neo Air is 14.5 oz and has an R-value listed of 2.5 but I wonder about that. As it has no insulation I wonder if that is a “perceived” R-value due to the reflective layer inside. I don’t know enough about thermal dynamics (or what-ever) to say. Even giving it the benefit of the doubt it is not going to replace the IAC for me. From where I sit I think it will mainly blow the Clearview and regular Air Core pads out of the water. But you can buy about three of the BA pads for the cost of one Neo Air.

By adding a Z-Lite pad the insulation would be boosted to about R- 4.5 but it adds another 14 oz of weight too. Hence my saying I won’t be dumping the IAC. But I think I am going to love it for summer and lowland hiking. Plus with as small as it packs down I may just end up in a UL-sized backpack yet.
It takes me 14 big breathes to inflate the Neo Air. This is completely full. I will use a bit less in the field.

I am going to use it this weekend. I am not sure where I will have to go to stay out of the snow. Maybe I will try it in the snow and bring a Z-Lite for backup. (Yeah that sounds like a plan. I have big packs…)

My S weighed in at 9.45 oz.

(I don't suppose Thermarest uses decimal points in their specs; so this would round down to 9, hmmm…)

I'm flying out to Sardinia later today (WoooHooo!) and I'm taking a cheap 3/8" foam pad so I can throw it on the beach without puncture worries. I'll put my 8oz beach towel on top for some extra warmth at night and as a way of minimizing sweatiness. I don't expect my space-blanket groundsheet will help much…

Total pack weight for the 10 day trip – 5 pounds 4 oz including sunglasses. B-)