Ryan Jordan’s SUL Winter Challenge

[Michael Martin]

Ok, I’ll jump back in….

Davidson writes: (sorry, couldn’t resist)

>> Dropstoppers Micropore Jacket

Why do we need this layer? I’ve not seen the RBH shirt. Does it have a waterproof exterior? We also have the eVent cocoon…

>> nightlite+thinlite+thinlite

Ok, how do you envision these to be used? What size are they trimmed to?

>> Possumdown gloves+vapor mitts

Can the Possum gloves be used inside the mitts? Won’t they wet out? Anybody tried this?

>> Cocoon pants/VB pants/Gamma MX

Which of these leg layers would he use for digging the snow cave?

>> plastic grocery bag

I thought we killed this.

>> I suggest that more fuel is needed.

Primus made a 440g fuel canister (15.5oz full, 7.2oz empty) which is lighter than two 220g canisters. But if I recall, it contained some regular (non-iso) butane in the mix, so I wouldn’t trust it in winter temps without some prior backyard testing. Also, I’ve not been able to find the big canisters this season. Maybe they are no longer available.

>> VB clothing…

Kevin, you brought up the wisdom of using a VB jacket on a multi-day trip without some prior backyard testing in a previous post. I agree that testing would be a good idea — especially considering how different people “react” to VB under various exertion levels. (Personally, I’ve slept Ok in VB. But if I’m moving, I’ve been soaked.) Maybe Ryan would comment on his personal experience w/ VB clothing and his comfort level with using a VB jacket as a primary torso layer for this trip.

[kevin davidson]

Good- there’s still life on this thread

Dropstoppers Jacket primarily for snowcave digging to prevent snow creeping down pants and as a backup layer–a little more warmth a little more moisture pro.

Pads–Toso and thicker thinlight under torso, 1/8″thinlight for legs/feet/some overlap w/ pack — nightlights are 54″ (I think).

Gloves– you’re probably right about Possums.
I suggest a synthetic liner, perhaps a heavier weight capilene.

Grocery bag–yep, should be removed.

VB clothing–Ryan should let us know what he feels about it. It works for some—not me or you, apparently. VBLs for sleeping are great, agreed.

VB pants would be worn as outer shell for snow cave construction (over Gammas).

I probably missed something but I have a pending snuggle date–bye.

[Michael Martin]

Kevin writes:

>> Pads–Toso and thicker thinlight under torso, 1/8″thinlight for legs/feet/some overlap w/ pack

Hope Ryan likes cold legs…

>> VB pants would be worn as outer shell for snow cave construction (over Gammas)

Haven’t tried this, but I worry about soaking the Gammas with the high exertion level.

Cheers,

-Mike

[Ryan Jordan]

>> Possumdown gloves+vapor mitts
> Can the Possum gloves be used inside the mitts? Won’t they wet out? Anybody tried this?

Yes, it works well for very cold temps. You can sense when they are getting too wet, which means it’s too warm for the liners, so you take them off and stuff them in your coat/pack.

>> Cocoon pants/VB pants/Gamma MX
> Which of these leg layers would he use for digging the snow cave?

If this was my pant setup, I’d be digging in the VB’s over the Gammas. Your legs don’t sweat as much as torso in digging a cave, the Gammas wouldn’t wet out too bad. I wore VB (silnylon) pants digging a cave a few years ago, and layered them over softshell pants, it was ok. Damp, but ok.

>> I suggest that more fuel is needed.

For me: generally, 6-8 oz of canister fuel per day is required to melt snow for water. About 4-5 oz/day of white gas.

>> VB clothing…
> Maybe Ryan would comment on his personal experience w/ VB clothing and his comfort level with using a VB jacket as a primary torso layer for this trip.

No problem, unless it’s warm. If daytime temps are > 15 deg, it’ll be sweaty. But I expect them to be < 15 so it should be fine.

[Ryan Jordan]

>> Pads–Toso and thicker thinlight under torso, 1/8″thinlight for legs/feet/some overlap w/ pack
> Hope Ryan likes cold legs…

In the winter I’ve used a (Nightlight torso OR a TorsoLite) over a (3/4 thinlight AND a 24″ x 12″ x 1/4″ pad in my backpack) and don’t have a problem. Having legs ONLY on a thinlight would definitely be cool. If my pack did not have padding in it, I’d take a full length thinlight with a 1/2 length double layer of thinlight foam glued to the lower end up to the torso pad.

[jacob thompson]

I have no experience with winter hiking so I really can’t weigh in on this one. I will ask this though, since Dr.J is taking camera equipment etc. is there anything in there they may serve dual purpose for his gear?

[Ryan Jordan]

I will have an ultrapod mini (0.9 oz) that i’ll (hopefully!) use with a Stix trekking/ski pole that will serve as a tripod. My other journal equipment:

1. Ricoh GR Digital Camera in Aloksak with 4xAAA Li Batteries (2 sets) & 2x1GB SD cards

2. Rite in the Rain Mini Notebook & pen

3. Possibly a sat/cell phone with data entry device for dispatching live to the BPL website from the field.

[paul johnson]

quote fr/ the BPL on-line catalog webpage for the “FeatherLite Vapor Mitts”

“Ryan Jordan has layered these over PossumDown Gloves for backcountry conditions approaching -15 °F”

EDIT:
should have read the entire Night’s postings before chiming in. the good Dr. has already spoken. hadn’t gotten down that far in the “MyNew”, so didn’t see it b/f replying. i’d delete the Post content, but don’t want to be “spanked” for damaging Thread continuity (a valid concern to my mind – NOT the “spanking”; rather, Thread-continuity).

[Bob Gabbart]

Glad to see that we are moving back to the RBH Prototype Jacket and pants VBL combination. I’m looking forward to seeing how that works out, and I like the idea of dropping weight through the dual use of the VBL for sleeping and digging.

I’d also like to second dropping the Micropore jacket if we have the RBH Jacket. Although nice to have, it seems redundant. However, if we are going to bring it, I suggest we move it to the “Packed” list as it would be used primarily for digging and most likely would not be worn during the day.

Bob

[kevin davidson]

Unless the RBH shirt/jacket is cut long (Ryan?–what’s the word,here?)–I would advocate the micropore, especially for digging out caves. I prefer to dig out a snowcave myself in a Jacket/bib combo to keep the snow from infiltrating under my layers. Also–when Ryan is slogging along, we have him with just the RBH topside—rather thin, don’t you think? Not that the dripstopper is an ideal extra layer on top of the VB. Frankly, on top of the VB we could use a LW but more durable non-breathable hardshell for the purpose I had in mind.

[Michael Martin]

Ryan-

Thanks for your informative posts. (Speaking for myself, anyway) we’re kind of unruly and need to be hearded a little once in a while. <g>

Ryan writes:

>> I’d take a full length thinlight with a 1/2 length double layer of thinlight foam glued to the lower end up to the torso pad.

Are you talking about the 1/8″ or 3/8″ thinlights here?

Best Regards,

-Mike

[kevin davidson]

Does anyone still think that everything is going to fit in the G6 Uberlite ? More bulky clothing, more fuel, journalistic gear. A pack that had a foam pack back or used a pad to create a virtual frame would do double duty to help with at least part of the sleeping pad system.

Perhaps a Gossamer Gear G5 Hyperlight (7 oz.) would really be more appropriate— or even a more robust pack that could take having snowshoes strapped to it without worries of self-destructing.

[Bob Gabbart]

What about using the upcoming BMW Rapture Pack? It’s larger and made out of more durable fabric so it should fair better with lashed on snow shoes. But it’s 12ounces heavier than the G6.

[kevin davidson]

I believe the Rapture was going to have a main compartment volume of 2000 cu. in—-so it may not be much larger than the G6. It would fill the robust requirement.

[kevin davidson]

For 2.5 days ( meeting the needs of a Winter trip),
I have computed the following, based on Ryan’s fuel consumption figures:

Using a Canister stove system, weight of Vargo Stove and MSR cartridges (7 oz. fuel consumption a day) would come to 37.05 oz. ( 2.7 oz. stove, 20.05 oz. fuel, 13.35 oz. cartridge empty weight).

Using a White Gas stove (fuel @ 5 oz./day) , weight equals 27 oz. ( 11 oz. MSR Simmerlite stove, 3.5 oz. fuel container, 12.5 oz. white gas).

What do people think ? We will definitely be going north (or is that south) on the base weight.

[Michael Martin]

fwiw, I calculated fuel weights for various fuels and containers a while ago. The table wouldn’t format nicely to fit here, but here is a link to a spreadsheet:

http://www.nic.edu/compsci/mamartin/files/fuel.xls

Kevin, what fuel bottle did you have in mind at 3.5oz? Also, I think the 12.5oz white gas vs 20oz butane/propane amounts you used unfairly favors white gas.

I’d love for Roger Caffin to weigh in again here. I’m a fellow fan of the Coleman Xtreme (Powermax) stove. But, it’s not really SUL.

Finally, I’m a bit surprised that Ryan had higher fuel consumption w/ canisters than with white gas. Can anyone offer a good explanation?

[kevin davidson]

Michael –I actually prefer canister to white gas whenever possible.
Both the fuel container and consumption amounts are based on previous postings by Ryan. He has used a ti fuel bottle for white gas in the past ( MSR Titan).

The canisters used in the figures are 2 large and 1 small MSR cartridges ( weights taken from Zen Stove website).

If someone can spin figures to favor cartridge stoves, I’d frankly be delighted.

[Richard Nelridge]

Kevin,

Again, as Michael suggested, you may want to consider the the Coleman Xtreme. My Xtreme weighs 11 oz (if carried in stuff sack 1 additional oz). 2 10.6 oz Powermax Fuel canisters weigh 13.9 oz x 2 = 27.8 oz. The weight of the canisters weigh about 3.03 oz x 2 = 6.06 oz. The complete kit without the stuff sack would be 11 oz + 27.8 oz = 38.8 oz. That is for 21.2 oz of fuel. There would also be the weight for the green key if carried. Empty and crushed the canisters will take up less space and as mentioned only weigh 6.06 oz for 2.

Of course, you could replace one of the 10.6 oz Powermax cannisters with the smaller one and save some weight, but that may be a bit light on fuel. As it is with the larger capacity of fuel that would leave Ryan with 3.7 oz of fuel as a cushion.

Rich

[kevin davidson]

Richard and Michael, I have always been intrigued by the Coleman Xtreme system. However–this would be the heaviest of the options bandied about, so far. Far less need to be babied at low temps. compared to the Vargo/ canister gambit, to be sure.

[Richard Nelridge]

Kevin,

If we could get by with 1 10.6 oz Powermax Canister and 1 6 oz Powermax Canister, we would have 16.6 oz of fuel at a weight of 13.9 oz + 8.4 oz = 22.3 oz.

This would only allow for 6.64 oz of fuel per day in 2.5 days.

However, if Ryan could do this the set-up would result in 11 oz for the stove and 22.3 oz for 2 fuel bottles with a total weight of 33.3 oz.

Rich

[kevin davidson]

So, we have a minimum of 5oz. difference between going white gas(MSR Simmerlite) or powermax (Coleman Xtreme) contrasting my figures and Richards.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

[Ryan Faulkner]

I think we should take advantage of the fact that Ryan said he could cook over fires, every ounce we save is worth it.

[kevin davidson]

Young Ryan( Ryan F.,Ryan 2, Ryan the Younger?-got to have an easy way to distinguish between the 2 of you)—if he’s spending most of his time above timberline, it’s poor wilderness practice. It’s a Western thing—you folk in the East may not appreciate it.
If this was a in the woods sort of trip, it would be an appropriate option.

[Richard Nelridge]

Kevin,

Even if Ryan J. has an MSR Titanium White Gas Fuel Bottle (and that would be OK for this experiment), MSR has discontinued the Titanium Bottles and would not be available for any of the BPL community. They now only offer Aluminum Fuel Bottles.

Rich

[Ryan Faulkner]

I guess he may not be able to obtain wood, but I thought I read this in an earliar post?

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