Ryan Jordan’s SUL Winter Challenge

[kevin davidson]

I updated the last list posted (the modified Bob built on the shoulders of John’s) with corrected weights (sox, X6 watch, and other erratum) added Reed pants–a good idea. Changed Micropore to Dropstoppers carried on this Site w/ improved sizing. Aero windshirt dropped.
There are different ideas about what an appropriate
insulated Jacket/Parka should be used with posters offering the WM Flight Jacket and/or vest, Rab Neutrino, and hooded Cocoon. More discussion on this?

“Modified Bob SUL Winter List”

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/1435/index.html?skip_to_post=10312#10312

Remember–this is a working document. Slice and dice, cut and paste, or start from scratch. It’s an attempt at synthesis—yep the ‘ole group think.
Yikes, design by committee!

[Michael Martin]

John writes:

>> layer the jacket over the vbl for even more loft…

I think we might have a misunderstanding here. Kevin suggested using a hooded insulating jacket (a special BMW Cocoon with an attached hood). The hood would be used for head insulation in the sleep system, making it hard to drape the jacket over the VBL torso.

I totally agree that if you didn’t have to wear the hood, a jacket could be draped over the VBL. (I even suggested it on my Oct. 20 post on this thread.)

Kevin writes:

>> imagine putting just the hood over your head, rest of jacket is a cape…

Cool Idea! I’ll have to give that one a try.

Just to throw out something else — If we used a torso insulating piece w/ a separate hood, maybe we could get the best of both worlds (head insulation and torso insulation draped over the VBL). Or maybe we could go hoodless and rely on the PS balaclava and perhaps a Possumdown Beanie.

Best Regards,

-Mike

[kevin davidson]

I’m unhappy about the activewear component
of RJ’s clothing system–for the body, anyway.
I’d like to get in a softshell jacket somehow.
right now it’s MW merino and the Micropore when he’s working. The Insulated jacket is for rest stops and camp.

[Bob Gabbart]

Kevin,

You forgot to move the Dropstoppers to the worn clothing section. If he doesn’t have a windshirt, I assume he’ll be wearing the Dropstoppers all the time.

Also, from what I could get from the article that mentioned the hooded pullover, the hood is not insulated, it’s like a windshirt hood. We should probably add back the PossumDown Beanie.

Bob

[kevin davidson]

I seem to remember that there was an insulated hood prototype somewhere if not the one in that article. Also in the newer Polarguard Delta and not with Primaloft. But if I’m mistaken, then yes, we need the beanie. Also, if there is no such jacket, I would reconsider the whole jacket approach.

You are right about the dropstoppers-I’ll update.

[Roger Caffin]

-we generally use poles w/ snowshoes, especially in mixed and steep terrain.
I have used snowshoes. I ended up carrying my ski stocks on my pack part of the time. But I don’t use trekking poles in summer either. Excess weight!

-Ryan will have to Cave to use such a light sleeping system in the anticipated low temperature ranges.
Hum – having camped at -15 C (5 F) myself, I dispute that claim. And the water problem in a cave creates weight problems of its own. Are we still following conventional heavyweight logic?

-For blisters(if any) he can use duct tape. Even w/ good fitting footwear some of us get blisters and I probably get more of them in the Winter.
Then fix your footwear. Blisters mean your footwear is not correct.

-You can’t carry a tune? And Australians don’t care to?;-)
Dodging the point: it’s excess weight.

-Butane lighters often have trouble working in extremely cold temps.
Never have any problem. I just stick it in my pocket while unpacking my pack.

-TP is arguable but alcohol hand gel is great for sanitary purposes (like after wiping) .
Excess weight again. You could try washing with water. I thought you guys were after SUL?

Cheers
Roger Caffin

[kevin davidson]

Roger –how about details of your sleeping/shelter system at -15 C. Was there wind? Were you prepared for a storm? I’ve bivouaced at 6000 meters on a ridge in a halfbag and Parka in temps. approaching what you were in but with nasty winds with just a crevice in rock for limited shelter. It was survivable but it was not a pleasant experience. I think we are looking for a little better than just surviving the experience.

If I or others are following heavyweight logic still we are proposing a system that provides a base weight of less than 5 lbs. Why don’t you give it a crack?

Yes, you can snowshoe w/o poles but like a chicken flying, you can’t do it efficiently.Not on steep ground. Yes, he will have to carry an extremely lightweight pair some of the time, as will he the snowshoes.

The other little incidentals add up to about 3 ozs. Before quibbling with these items we should worry more about the bigger picture.

Yes, I guess the sense of humor is excess weight.

[kevin davidson]

That G6 is going to be hard pressed to contain what must be carried on this jaunt. i’ve brought this up before.
Any thoughts?

[Bob Gabbart]

Kevin,

With regard to everything in the “pack” list, I believe that will all fit with the exception of the ThinLight which will have to be bungeed on. Food and water should go in there no problem as well. Carrying the snowshoes + poles if he has to is another story.

Bob

[paul johnson]

using some of the webbing loops on the G6, i bungee a Nightlight Torso pad to the pack (ThinLight pad might be “cut” in a couple of places and folded similarly for “bungeeing” – if necessary duct tape can hold the sections together). makes a nice “poor man’s” pad pocket. obviously, since there is no hip belt, there is no need to xfr wt and this arrangement wouldn’t do that anyways. it’s just a nice spot to place the pad and frees up a lot of interior space.

[Richard Nelridge]

I’ve been looking over the Ryan’s SUL list for his March of Doom and I have some questions. First, I presume that the 2 Gossamer Gear pads will be used inside the bivy which will prevent them from absorbing any water. The Torso Length NightLight is only 29″ long and the 59″ long 3/8″ ThinLight Pad is supposed to be used under the NightLight with the rest of the body (the legs) lying over the partially emptied pack. I am wondering will those 2 pads provide sufficient insulation for close to freezing temperatures in a Snow Cave?

Will Ryan have sufficient insulation, in particular for his legs? The only insulating layer for his legs are the Arc’Teryx Gamma MX Softshell Pants. Will the GoLite Reed Pants add sufficient added warmth or should we also include VBL pants or some additional insulating pants like the BMW Cocoon?

Also, even for only 2 days, will 1 MSR (is this the smaller or the larger canister?) gas canister supply sufficient fuel for hot meals,hot beverages, and melting sufficient snow for water?

Rich

[kevin davidson]

All excellant questions–I hope someone else will take a stab at answering them in depth.

I will just say that in part it will depend on Ryan’s rate of metabolism and acclimitization to cold conditions.

[Alan Garber]

I was wondering how far what your plans are for this “SUL” winter expedition?

I worry about your safety. Exposure in the summer is potentially life-threatening but in the winter it is much more likely life-threatening. I just can’t conceive how you can do it safely with such a light load.

Will you be travelling in an avalanche prone region? I guess is you are caught in a slide you don’t need a beacon, shovel or probe if you are solo :)

At a minimum I would think you need a zero degree bag(I assume you are doing a true winter in January) and a bivy which is hard to keep under 3 lbs. Even if you build a snow cave or trench you still need to keep your down bag dry. Even if you do a down jacket and 20 deg bag and bivy you’re talking 3 lbs………

Over the years I have lightened my load (I no longer use my 900 lb TNF backpack)…..I have a better down bag and I have learned tons from this and the backpacking.net and I travel lighter but I could never see myself travelling SUL in winter……

[kevin davidson]

Here’s something for you to read Alan on the subject of light loads in Winter–granted Ryan Jordan will be attempting an even lighter system.
But with improved gear and some different assumptions concerning the gear and personal performance.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00277.html

I can only assume that Dr. Jordan will be selective in his routefinding—he’s a family man and doesn’t seem to me to be suicidal.:-)>

[John S.]

Winter SUL Gear List updated to change Nalgene cantene size, cookpot, and sleep headwear.

Total- 79.2 oz (4.95 pounds)

[paul johnson]

John,

looks like “TheGList” is really shaping up – looks good.

what do you, or anyone, think about substituting a Petzl TikkaXP for the Eos (both are very fine headlamps). i believe that the XP is ~0.3oz lighter and the flip-up diffuser might be appreciated inside a snow cave – a whole lot of reflected light i would imagine. also, the wt you listed for the Eos and mine, above, for the XP – are those with Li or alkaline batts? i think that the wts are with alkaline, so we want Dr. J to use Li batts, right? it’s cold, plus if y’all decided to stick with the Eos, you’ll get longer regulated output with Li batts (up to 4x longer) before the Eos switches to unregulated output. the Li batts, are also ~0.13oz per batt lighter, so another ~0.39oz saved for the 3 batts.

just some thoughts.

---

read somewhere someone objected to Alc. Gel.

ok. that’s fine.

i won’t be shakin’ hands with the fella or eatin’ anything he prepares/touches. however, for a short solo trip, less of an issue.

[really did enjoy his article on “Stove Theory” though. very well written and informative.]

questions: does reacted AqM have a half-life? if so, it’s more than sufficient to kill Crypto after 4hrs contact time. however, if it does have a half-life, what is the half-life of AqM after it is reacted and water is treated? depending upon the ans. to these questions, using prev. treated water as a disinfectant (and not solely as a means of irrigating a wound) may not be advisable. sure the water is clean, but you may not “kill” any buggers with it – depending upon it’s half-life.

also, more to the Alc. Gel point, if it does have a half-life, then if you mess on your hands, well, maybe water treated the prev. evening won’t do for disinfecting the “schmutz” (yes, kevin, i know what “schmutz” really means. i’m using it in a more generic sense) after the next morning’s toilet accident?? … oh…well…there’s always some sphagnum moss for disinfecting purposes – if you can find it; or, there’s also the equally implausible “hey…you in the neighboring snow-cave, can you spare some alc. gel?” a little Alc. Gel is lookin’ a bit better right now, right?!! use the wt. saved by using Li batts – see above- to incl. a bit ‘o Alc. Gel in the kit. finally…

in reality, how many times do we “mess”, not very often, right? how many times would we admit it, even less perhaps??? how many times would i want someone confessing this to me – NEVER!!!

i always carry Alc. Gel.; though, perhaps more than i really need.

i am serious, however, about finding out the half-life of reacted AqM. so, if you know it, please Post a reply.

just some more thoughts.

[kevin davidson]

I like the Nunatak balaclava/Flight Jacket combo.
I will have to say that this all down-insulated clothing solution would be problematic for snow cave living in Pacific NW conditions. A low humidy winter environment/very dry snow is what will make it possible. But the warmth/weight ratio of above is so good.
How about listing some of the worn clothing that is being considered. We have some on your list , some on the BobG list ( on p.8)…. Time to consolidate?

What do you think about the 1L Trangia saucepan w/ a foil lid (2.5 oz.) instead of the Evernew pot?

And now more on Snowcaves—
For a very small snowcave–which is what Ryan will most likely be constructing if he is to be on the move—it is imperative that the interior surfaces be glazed to prevent dripping which would be a huge bummer for RJ anytime he is not ensconsed in his Bivy.The interior has to be first scraped as smooth as possible and then bring in the stove, melt a pot of snow and boil, the moisture of which will then condense on the ceiling and walls and freeze, helping to “seal” the surface.

[Michael Martin]

Ok, I know I was the guy who steered us into the Gamma MX plus Golite Reed combo. But, the more I thought about it, the more I like something like Kevin’s original layer system:

>> Bottoms— synthetic baselayer – Golite LW C-Thru
Tights (4 oz.)
— softshell pant-Golite Propel (10 oz.)
— W/B hardshell pant-ID eVENT pant
(10 oz.)
<< If we need waterproof pants robust enough to kneel in while digging a snowcave, then it’s lighter to go with a decent hardshell rather than a deluxe softshell (the MX) and a flimsy waterproof overpant. Plus, since we agreed that Ryan will need some kind of leg base layer for the VBL, the base+Gamma MX+Reed combo is getting pretty heavy. I know it’s going in circles, but maybe we should reconsider something like Kevin’s original suggestion. It’s lighter, simpler, and more robust. If you want to trim it even further, you could call the Propel pants a base layer (assuming they wouldn’t get too soggy in the VBL) and eliminate the lightweight C-thru tights. Or, go with a mid or heavy weight (depending on expected temps) C-Thru, Powerdry, or Merino layer and skip both the Propel and lightweight C-thru. Whatcha think? -Mike

[kevin davidson]

Well Martin, I certainly thought my system was a good way to go.

I really hope some other people can jump in and stir the pot.

This has been a great thread at times–I know it’s going to inspire me to modify my kit this Winter.
Which incidently has just started in my neck of the Woods—blizzard in the Cascades–wahoo!

[Ryan Jordan]

Head spinning, great discussion!

Quick comment: the Cocoon Belay Jacket prototype, which is being discussed in various degrees of vagueness above, has an insulated hood, the hood is insulated, the insulation throughout is the same as the Cocoon pullover, quantum lining, eVENT shell…ho ho ho!!!! That’ll shake it up. it’s 14 oz. I also have a WM Flight Vest (5) and Jacket (10 oz), Rab Quantum Neutrino (18), Patagonia DAS (25).

The 9 oz Cocoon vaporware from a pvs gear list was an old prototype with an uninsulated hood and was even thinner insulation.

[kevin davidson]

Hmmmm….

[Richard Nelridge]

Ryan,

Really Cocoon Belay Jacket insulated with Polarguard 3D with Quantum inner and Event outer. I want one and so will a lot of other members and for only 14 oz or so. Will this have a full zip, possibly weatherproof?

Rich

[Roger Caffin]

> how about details of your sleeping/shelter system at -15 C. Was there wind? Were you prepared for a storm?
Well, conditions in australia are often very different from America. We CAN get -15 C overnight, and do, but we can also get 100 kph winds, sleet and rain overnight on the same trip. And this is in the snow.
In addition, I always travel with my wife, and she expects some small elements of comfort at the end of a hard cold day. So, we tent. A very lightweight 2-man 4-season tent: I made it myself. But it blocks the wind. It is interesting that when you add together the weights of two tarps, two ground sheets, two bivy bags etc, they often come to more than my tent.
And we carry 3/4 length Therm-a-Rests to sleep on in the snow. Damn it, I’m 60, and expect some comfort!
Otherwise, I wear silk coveralls at night and sleep under my SB used as a quilt. My bag has a hood, and this goes right over my head. Very nice and warm. My padded trousers go at the end of the mat for my feet.
In fact, I prefer some wind: it keeps the inside of the tent dry. In still air the hoarfrost builds up, and I have to scrape it down in the morning :-)

Snowshoes without poles: our country is more rolling, so we don’t get the steep stuff. Anyhow, snowshoes lack that certain elan which XC skis have. Most times, we ski. Lightweight 3-pin stuff.

[Joshua Mitchell]

Gah… I can’t wait until all the details of the new gear are released… grrr… any chance of getting a sneak peek pic of the prototype, DrJ?

[Aaron Sorensen]

My 2 cents.
The only way to go super ultra light and still be warm enough is to have some homemade gear in there. You can barely get under 6# with store bought stuff and here we are sending this poor man out with gear that is not suited for this experience.
This is why no can agree with any thing especially in tiring to get under 5#.
First of all, I don’t see how everybody doesn’t have a problem with the 8oz of pad he is carrying, or 1/10th the weight. He will be much warmer on a balloon bed with a cut down nightlite pad on each side. Then the issue of the G6 not being large enough won’t be an issue.
Besides, if you look at anybody’s UL gear list that is under 5#, you will realize that the only way they got there is with homemade gear. I would think that if Ryan already has the gear made, than he can use it but not make anything special for the trip. I’m sure Ryan himself is looking at the list and thinking, my gosh if I had this and that, It would be much lighter and I would be much warm.

Last, if we are really going to push the point of store bought gear than we really need to be lenient on the clothing and call about half of what we have as base weight as being worn clothing.

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