Ryan Jordan’s SUL Winter Challenge

[Michael Martin]

Ryan writes:

>> Since shelter type will govern clothing choices to a large extent, let’s tackle shelter/sleep system. The current proposal on the table (from John Shannon) is:

# Snowcave
# Snowclaw Snow Shovel
# Arc alpinist X
# Vapor nano bivy
# Spinnsack for sleep gear
# GG nightlight torso length cut down
# GG thinlight 3/8″ cut down
<< Ryan- We brought up the VBL issue previously. Without (yet) divulging your secret SUL techniques, can you deal with the down Arc X and snowcave condensation without one? (If so, I’m really looking forward to your trip report — much to learn…) Seems like you’d be shivering on your thinlight in a bag of wet oatmeal by the third night. Best Regards, -Mike

[John S.]

There is still the 4 oz. to add some overfill or a vbl…….or them extra socks.

[Mike Maurer]

Hey all,

Long time lurker, first time poster. couldn’t resist this one. Haven’t read the entire thread so this may be a bit redundant, OK, here goes;

IN PACK:
G6 pack – 3.7 oz
Arc X bag – 15.2
WM vest – 5.0
Cocoon jacket – 8.5
Quantum knickers – 6.4
reed pants – 4.3
Golite syhth hood – 2.5
Pdown cap – 1.4
OR balaclava – 1.0
PDown gloves – 1.2
Nano Pocho Tarp – 4.9 NEW (est)
6 stakes, line – 2.0
Nano/quantum bivy – 4.2 NEW (est)
RBH Vb socks/liners(sleeping) – 2.6
GG torso pad/+ leg pad – 7.5
Jet ti stove – 2.7
fuel canister – 3.3
SP 600 cup/spoon – 3.5

WEIGHT IN PACK – 79.9

Wear:

smartwool crew
Dragonfly
Golite momentum
arcteryx gamma pants
ice floe gloves
tilley hat
your choice of shoes

concept – cook drinks and soup, eat cold food. might switch SP60 for slightly larger pot. still need room for platy but this is getting close to what I’d carry.

OK – fire away.

Mike Maurer

[Mike Maurer]

Hey all,

I forgot to add Northern litees snowshoes tot he above list – they’d double as the shovel.

Mike Maurer

[kevin davidson]

What are “quantum knickers”? Are you suggesting a pair of cut down Cocoon Pants?

Cook pot too small, I think, for melting snow.
Perhaps too much weight and bulk from too many layers. You are suggesting that much of this fit into a G6. The Cocoon Pullover/W.M. vest combo is versatile but perhaps not warm enough to justify the weight/bulk penalty (over 4 oz. difference). If using a Cocoon, Ryan has access to a hooded version.

Poncho of limited utility in Winter–I’d hate to have it flapping around in a winter storm (if any) and doesn’t provide arm protection when digging out a snowcave but would be an excellant vehicle for trapping large quantities of loose snow within.

I think wind and moisture protection should be one garment for this trip. Dragonfly will flap around, a stiffer ID eVENT jacket will serve dual utility and be an extra thermal layer as part of layering system.
I would more likely use a UL windshell as part of a sleeping system in Winter.

I would go with a midweight merino wool baselayer.
I think a softshell jacket/pants combo is essential.
Golite Momentum (possibly) and the Gamma MX (good). Personally, I would prefer either Ibex Guide Lite Pants or Beyond Fleece Cold Fusion Pants (probably the latter for this mission). A zippered W/B pant is needed to fit over it.

[Ryan Jordan]

>> I think wind and moisture protection should be one garment for this trip. Dragonfly will flap around, a stiffer ID eVENT jacket will serve dual utility and be an extra thermal layer as part of layering system.
I would more likely use a UL windshell as part of a sleeping system in Winter.

Interestingly, choice of windwear is far more integrated with choice of shelter in the winter than in the “other seasons”.

If your choice of shelter is something you carry (tarp, tent, pyramid, etc.) then shoveling/stomping out a platform is not such a wet task and you could probably ditch waterproof garments.

On the other hand, if your choice of shelter is a snowcave, where your hands, knees, butt, shoulders, head, etc. are in constant contact with the snow, then waterproofs become a more serious consideration.

I’m curious what thought processes others go through in deciding on shell gear, or if there are other considerations here.

[Mike Maurer]

Keith,

Not much interest in debating gear decisions, HYOH I say. Here’s what was in my head, however, when I posted the list;

1. Mentioned in my “concept” notes about the need for a bigger pot. I’d switch to the anitgravity pot but didn’t want to take the time to figure out where to deduct the weight.
2. Quantum knickers – somewhere on this enormous website you might find a winter pic of Ryan in green down pants. These are his down knickers. Made by Nunatak a long time ago.
3. Warmth layers – with such a light down bag he’ll need the core warmth a WM vest provides. One of the better warmth/weight ratios around.
4. Poncho – arm coverage provided by the momentum jacket. Flapping ponchos suck but so what. Tarp would make a great roof for a snow trench in a big storm.
5. Layering the Dragonfly is for hiking WARMTH, not so much for wind protection. baselayer/windshirt/momentum can be a highly breathable, very warm kit for winter hiking (just ask Ryan).

Cheers.

Mike

[Mike Maurer]

Sorry Kevin,

I meant Kevin, not Keith on the last post. I know a guy named Keith Davidson, which is waht was in my head when I typed. Anyway, know you know why I don’t post much – I usually screw something up, and don’t spell check very well!!

[Ryan Jordan]

Mike Suggests:

>> 1 lb down bag
>> Poncho Tarp
>> wind shirt
>> snowshoes for a shovel

The only way to make a 1 lb down bag work in these temperatures is to (1) keep it dry to preserve the miniscule amount of insulation that’s in there, (2) take the time to build an ultra-efficient snowcave and keep it warm with an all-night candle (tea lights won’t do it), and (3) keep it dry from dripping, and drip it will, aplenty, if the cave is as warm as you want it.

The chance that (2) will happen with a poncho and wind shirt and a snowshoe is somewhere between zero and none. It will take about 10 minutes of digging with this setup before one becomes very wet, very cold, and very frustrated. This is an emergency scenario, which is not the goal of this exercise. The goal here is: how light can you go and still be safe and comfortable, tapping into as much skill and knowledge about gear and technique as possible to reduce pack weight.

Because the snowcaver with the kit listed above is soaking wet by the time he goes to bed, the one pound down bag will be destroyed in a few hours.

I think it’s fine that you’re wet when you go to bed, and I certainly don’t mind digging with a snowshoe and taking a poncho vs. a set of waterproofs. I can figure out a way to dig a good cave doing that, and don’t mind getting wet in the process. But, in order to make THAT system work, you need a down bag with spare dry clothes and/or VB perhaps, or, a synthetic bag that is a bit fatter than 1 lb, to compensate for the loss of insulating ability as a result of moisture in the bag.

Cool discussion, so many options. I hope this exercise is valuable: there’s lots to consider in the winter.

The trench idea is a good one, I love building trenches: they are FAST and with a roof supported by skis, sticks, poles, etc., pretty comfortable in a storm. But, they are COLD and require a sleep system rated to the ambient temperatures.

[kevin davidson]

Ryan –I’m being absolutely snowcave centric at this point in the discussion when I’m suggesting/critiqueing gear choices. I would like to keep the Arc Alpinist in the picture.

Mike , if you don’t want to debate choices, where’s the fun in participating in this discussion?

We all may learn something.

[Mike Maurer]

Kevin,

Good point on the debate thing – i’m in. Forgive the spell check issue though. OK – instead of asking myself WHAT I would put on a 5 lb baseweight list, I thought about what would I NEED in those conditions, and how much does it weigh? I started with Ryans ingoing scenario (about the 3rd post on this thread.) He needs to be covered for above treeline, storm conditions, 3 days/2 nights.

Then I thought, OK, what do I NEED in terms of snow melting. shelter, etc. When I got to the shelter part I figured:

below treeline, storms – Alphamid
bleow treeline, light snowfall but safe – Spinnshelter (for full protection)

However, I’m guessing that since the criteria is above treeline/stormy, a snow cave scenario is the only way to even consider a sub 5 lb weight. The minimum shelter I’d carry above treeline in winter is likely a Bd firstlight, carbon poles. Weight is around 2# 6 oz I think, which wipes out the 5 lb idea. So I’m going to re-think the gear list based on a snow cave scenario They take a long time to build, but ryan didn’t say he needed high mileage, so maybe a 2 night, three day trip can utilize a snow cave that would be used for 2 consecutive nights. Hike in/build on day 1, hike a loop on day 2, hike to car day three. I haven’t done the weight math, but some thoughts I’ll be considering under this scenrio:

Kitchen:
2L aluminum pot, lifter, flame, screen, lid, etc – 8.2 oz
large fuel canister – I think around 4.5 oz.
This would get him water and warm drinks.

warmth:

WM vest
cocoon jacket
cocoon pants
arc x bag – 15.2 oz
P3D overbag – 11 oz
nano bivy
down hood – 3 oz

Gets him down to Zero, and the high % of synthetic might get him through snow cave issues.

Wear:
Gamma pants
swool base
dragonfly
momentum jacket
tilley
shoes
K2 overboots
Northern Lites

Carry:
reed pants
maybe Montane superfly jacket
w/b gloves for building the cave. Hopefully he can build a cave in reeds/momentum/ w-b gloves

As you can see, the weight is soaring and I haven’t done the math. But this might be the lightest scenario for above treeline, I’d just need to tweak a wet snowbuilding clothing list and see where the numbers come in.

Mike

[kevin davidson]

When figuring out a sleeping system that will keep RJ warm and dry, remember that the inside temp. of a snow cave will generally stay around 32 degrees F if you can construct entry and venting right. Warmer when using a candle (vent well!).
see this for a snow cave primer–
http://www.etisurvival.com/snocv.htm

Keeping Ryan’s down bag dry will have to be addressed from both inside and outside of the bag.

Keeping the bag dry from ouside moisture sources:
quantum bivy , groundsheet, or even pack covers/liners/xtra clothing on top. Proper constuction of cave so anything that melts runs down walls and not dripping from ceiling.

Keeping things dry on the inside:
not breathing directly into the bag. VBL clothing or liner. Possibly wearing of w/b shells, windshirt and the like to bed would mitigate some of the moisture produced by the body.

Keeping things in perspective (if things go right), this trip is 3 days. Ryan can probably afford some degradation of his down insulation from moisture buildup—although his base weight will be going up with a wet bag.

[Mike Maurer]

I was beginning to put together a list of gear to recommend when it occured to me – I’ve never camped in a snow cave, nor have I ever built one. It wouldn’t make sense for me to post any sort of gear recommendation under these circumstances. I’ll step back and learn at this point.

Enjoyed playing in the sandbox though.

Mike

[Kevin Sawchuk]

I hope the snow out in Montana isn’t like that here in California or a snow claw won’t dig him a snow cave. In anything other than fresh light snow the snow claw hurts your hands and makes it very hard to dig.

Any thoughts on who takes over the website if he doesn’t come back? :)

[Douglas Frick]

> I hope this exercise is valuable: there’s lots to consider in the winter.

Absolutely. This year I’m changing from Hawaii winter (big surf) to Wyoming winter (brrrr). It’s been a long time since I snow camped, and I’m still gearing for winter. This is a great thread.

[Ryan Jordan]

>> remember that the inside temp. of a snow cave will generally stay around 32 degrees F if you can construct entry and venting right. Warmer when using a candle (vent well!)

At 0 degrees ambient, a 32 degree solo snowcave requires a very small volume cave with a tiny entrance. In practice, to make a cave “livable” and not a “coffin” the real difference is about 20 degrees once you’re settled down and asleep, an all-night candle like that provided with a standard sized UCO candle lantern will add a few degrees and take the edge off well enough in a solo-sized cave. Two or three persons in a cave, even though the cave is bigger, is usually a few degrees warmer.

The temperature is higher when you’re up and active and generating more heat than when you’re sleeping.

When you’re cooking, the cave really heats up! It’s nice! 45 degrees inside and a howling subzero blizzard out.

[Ryan Jordan]

>> I hope the snow out in Montana isn’t like that here in California or a snow claw won’t dig him a snow cave. In anything other than fresh light snow the snow claw hurts your hands and makes it very hard to dig.

Nah, it’s all cold smoke out here in mid-winter. The Snowclaw is perfect for the Northern Rockies.

[Bill Fornshell]

Ryan, Do you have a date or an estimated date for your hike?

[Ryan Jordan]

>> Ryan, Do you have a date or an estimated date for your hike?

As soon as there’s enough snow in the mountains to dig a cave and the low temps drop to zero or lower.

Could be as early as late Nov. Shouldn’t be any later than early Jan.

[Bill Fornshell]

I am hoping to see some snow in the Smokies the last 2 weeks in December. I am sure there will not be enough for a snow cave but a few inches would sure make some nice pictures. I will be going South on the AT around a 140 miles if I don’t have any problem getting to my start point. I will be using my new Hammock and my Home-Made Down Sleep System as soon as I get out of the park. I want to try at least one 3/4 day section SUL and see how that works out. I will have lots of different gear and all my snow toys close so I hope I get to use a few of them.

[kevin davidson]

I’ve had the pleasure of sleeping quite a few nights in caves, but never solo ( although I have constructed such a shelter as an emergency exercise). Usually 2 or more, sometimes palatial affairs. So, interesting hearing of your temp./comfort experiences, Ryan.

The lightest way to get a bag rated at freezing down another 7-15 degrees (and incidentally helping to keep the down fill as dry as possible) would be with a VBL liner. I have an old PU nylon one which weighs 5 oz. and in a light silnylon or better yet, Nano/Cuben it could be absurdly light.
I think that might be a workable solution in truest SUL good form for using an Arc X for solo snow cave living and to give Dr. Jordan a reasonable good night’s rest.

For a VBL liner to work best, one sleeps with nothing more than a baselayer (I know of several VBL nudists who swear by their method–just ask the Stephenson family). My experience of use at sub-freezing temps. is of initially feeling clammy but waking up dry. The warmer it is, the more clamminess. The baselayer helps to mitigate the clamminess by wicking moisture away from your body. The VBL seems to work best at sub 20-25 degree temperatures F.

Of course, you can’t wear additional insulation (like a down sweater) within the VBL—it will absorb body moisture. But it could be used outside of it.

If the VBL option is employed and since snowcaves are the only practical shelters for this SUL trip, the Nano-tarp can be ditched. No weight gain, and perhaps a weight loss if we see a Nano-VBL.

Incidently, I often use a naked candle in snow caves for light/warmth. Weight of candle lantern could be
removed from consideration. You just need to employ it away from burnables/meltables and away from cavewalls.

[Ryan Jordan]

I will have available to me, if you so choose that it be used by me, a few VB items of interest.

Silnylon pull on VB pants. 3 oz
Silnylon VB shirt. 3 oz
RBH Designs proto VB jacket. 10 oz
BMW Nano sleeping bag VB liner. 2 oz.

VB clothing can be used in conjunction with insulating clothing to boost sleep system comfort, but a VB liner is lighter.

The RBH jacket is intended to be used as part of the winter clothing system in base layer mode. I’m pretty eager to give this a go this winter, if not on this trip. I’m guessing you could cover all bases with this and a parka and call it good: 2 layers of clothing for a winter trip. That’s absurd. It’s very well done, and a cool concept. Like Stephenson’s VB shirt, but way more versatile.

[kevin davidson]

I think you definitely should go for the Nano liner.
The VBL jacket sounds very interesting ( gotta keep an eye on RBH), but could you save it for another winter trip? I think the whole ultra light sleeping set up in a snow cave built around a down bag, begs for a VBL liner.

Or can a case be made for the RBH jacket w/ the right clothing combo, making an ultimately lighter
system?
Ryan Jordan reports, you decide.

[kevin davidson]

no action on this front lately—consider this a friendly bump to the subject of equipping Ryan Jordan on his mission to en-Lighten us all.

[John S.]

Winter SUL Gear List updated to add VB liner.

[Author]

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