Made in the USA

"This thread started out with the simple question;
"which gear companies make their stuff in the USA".
I was the first to respond with a simple, though incomplete, list of some very good USA manufacturers. Over time the thread morphed into a political rant."

It's not surprising that it degenerated because it was a loaded question from the start. When asked by Ben the OP explained that they were a journalist researching the issue and wanted to source locally made goods (because of carbon miles) but the reality is that no matter how innocent the original question was, that topic, like dogs in National Parks or carrying guns when hiking, is bound to end up with a range of conflicting views.

"You may be correct that the Chinese will not democratize. Nothing's for sure, but I think they will — as evidenced in Taiwan.

We should not confuse democracy with nationalism. A country can be democratic and also inflexibly, totally "in your face" nationalistic. I am sure I don't need to actually cite an example in this case. :)"

Ben

:)

Sadly the Indians are another example. You probably didn't follow this over the Austral summer, but check out the "monkey" racism issue in the Australia/Indian cricket test series. The best summary of it, and what it meant, was offered by a commentator who said that if India was going to be a superpower if looked like they were going to be a particularly unpleasant one.

Hi Arapiles,
Regarding India, they can indeed be unpleasantly nationalistic, but they are far from being a super power, and probably won't be for a long, long time, if ever; too many domestic issues to deal with and an ancient taboo against aggression beyond their borders. You may well see them involved in unpleasantness on their periphery, but highly unlikely elsewhere. IMO, there are far nastier and imminently dangerous superpowers and wannabes vieing for our attention these days.

"Regarding India, they can indeed be unpleasantly nationalistic, but they are far from being a super power, and probably won't be for a long, long time,"

Hi Tom

India are part of the so-called "BRIC" group – Brazil, Russia, India and China – who are supposed to be the waking giants of the 21st century. But then they've been saying that about Brazil for a long time …

One thing that is undoubted is that Australia will never be a superpower!!

.

Or at least rewrite BPL's description for "The G Spot" by replacing the word "chaff" for the word "gear" throughout the description as follows and entitled "The C Spot":

"CHAFF talk. Everything CHAFF. All about CHAFF. Ultralight backpacking chaff. Lightweight backpacking chaff. Hiking chaff. Anything CHAFF. Chaff that sucks, chaff that works, chaff that's cheap, chaff that's cool, chaff that's overrated by lying manufacturers, chaff that's only available from a side street Spanish market, chaff that breaks, chaff that's multi-use, chaff that can be Googled, CHAFF CHAFF CHAFF CHAFF. Now go. Talk 'some chaff."

And then create (and enforce) a new "Gear And Nothing But Gear" topic with transgressors to be punished by surcharge on any purchases (including subscriptions) from BPL.

JRS

I think your being too lenient:

"Transgressors to be punished by surcharge on any purchases (including subscriptions) from BPL"

"I'm not going to go into all the awful things that the US has done throughout history (if you are not aware of them you should learn more about world history, preferably from both sides of the coin, and if you deny them then you shouldn't be accusing anyone of not being intellectually honest), just suffice it to say that such comments are truly rich coming from someone from a country as destructive as the United States."

"That is the single most ludicrous statement in this entire thread. The simple fact of the matter is that the Unites States has fed, clothed and freed from oppression more people than any other nation in the history of the planet. I challenge you to name a nation that has provided more assistance to more people or has fought wars to free more people than the United States of America.

It is because of the United States that Japan is no longer run by a brutal military dictatorship. It is because of the United States that Taiwan is a free and prosperous nation. It is because of the United States that South Korea isn't living in the stone age and starving like their Communist brothers in the north. It is because of the United States that Europe has been provided with a defense umbrella to recover from their own two self inflicted massive wars, after the Unites States sacrificed hundreds of thousands of it's finest to stamp out the Nazi menace. It is because of the United states that the planet is no longer menaced by the likes of Nikita Khrushchev. It is because of the United States that the people of Iraq have a chance to build a free and prosperous country if they choose to.

Yes, I can see just how evil and destructive America is.

Give me a break. You Miguel, need to think long and hard about history, and about what kind of nation you would be living in right now if it weren't for the "evil" and "destructive" United States.

This is the last I have to see on this"

Oh, yeah, America did it all for altruistic purposes. NOT because they were attacked in Pearl Harbor, NOT because it was becoming obvious they could no longer keep the war out of their own back yard. And America's justification in Iraq sounds exactly like China's justification in Tibet:

"Tibet Was Liberated: China's Perspective
China states that its invasion and occupation of Tibet was designed to liberate Tibetans from medieval feudal serfdom and slavery. Tibetan serfs were thought to have no freedoms. They were regarded by their masters as talking animals. China argues that the masses of Tibetan serfs lived in extreme poverty. Since the liberation in 1959, China asserts that Tibetans have enjoyed all rights of equality and they have embarked on the road of freedom and happiness. China claims that Tibet is now a modernized community benefitting from economic growth and social progress. Millions of serfs are now the masters of their fate, and large numbers of Tibetan workers, intellectuals, and officials have taken up the task of building and managing Tibet. China argues that all Tibetans now have equal rights in politics, the economy, and in their daily life. Tibetans are also thought to enjoy full religious freedom. China claims that Tibetans have greatly benefitted from their presence. Moreover, according to Chinaºs White Paper, China has invested 1.1 billion yuans to develop education in Tibet. Big strides have been made in education, science, culture, and public health. For instance, China argues that it has rebuilt Tibetan Monasteries, Nunneries, and monuments. Further, it asserts that the Tibetan population has soared to 2 million from 1 million in the 1950's. China also claims that the Tibetans fully support the Communist Party and Government officials in Tibet. China argues that negotiation is the only solution for Tibet, stating that The 14th Dalai Lama should size up the situation, go with the tide of historical development and make a correct choice.'

Sounds a lot like the American point of view in Iraq…my point being that Chinese propaganda, just like American, is very very effective in convincing it's own people that China is doing good things by 'rescuing' these poor souls. I disagree with Benjamin that education of the Chinese through free-trade is the best way forward. Most of the Chinese nationals I interact with here are PhD students…hardly uneducated, and yet they tow the party-line like the brain-washed product of their upbringing that they are. There will always be two sides to every story, and it takes real guts to stand up for things that you think are right (or wrong). Remember, every government thinks that THEY are in the right. That doesn't mean it really is the best course of action for those being "saved" against their will.

Now, onto some real CHAFF…

Allison:

I think you should read Miguel's post in context.

He is not saying that America is evil per se — at least that's not how I read it at all. His post is a response to the "holier than thou" attitudes that some posters seemed to have displayed. In a nutshell, I think he is asying that all of us have skeletons in our closets. And this, I agree with him.

Voicing criticisms of a country does not automatically equate to a wholesale condemnation of that country.

But I know ALL OF US can agree on two things:

1. This thread has degenerated beyond all usefulness.
2. The moderators have obviously all fallen asleep.

Yo Arapiles,
"One thing that is undoubted is that Australia will never be a superpower!!"
As long as you've got Fosters and Swan Lager, who cares? Let other, less enlightened, sods do the heavy lifting while you kick back and enjoy the show.
Cheers,
Tom

I was actually agreeing with Miguel's post, it was Timothy's post that got me on the back foot. The "America is the saviour of the World Post" was the sorta thing you could only ever hear from an American…just Like China's perspective on Tibet could only ever have come from a Chinese perspective. Yes, we all have skeleton's in our closet, and as far as I know this board is not 'moderated', but I think most folks would see pretty quickly that this post is Chaff and move on if they don't want to read it. To make things clearer, I am nominating myself to move the follow-on to this thread over at Chaff:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/create_thread?forum=36

Allison:

My fault. Sorry.

But no, I think this whole thread should stay in this forum branch. It belongs here. :)

Yes, we've done some great things for other countries, but…starting with recent history and moving backward, we can see:

– Over a hundred thousand innocent Iraqi civilians killed by the US directly or as a result of our invasion
– Ongoing deaths of innocents in Afghanistan – far more than were killed on 9/11
– Tens of thousands of dead in Central America as a result of our actions and support of certain regimes
– Hundreds of thousands of civilians dead in Vietnam and Cambodia at our hands
– There are dozens of other examples, recent and past (including the massacre and displacement of the native Americans, including some of my relatives, by our government and our people)

So, of course just as many and more have been killed by other regimes – but we shouldn't pretend the US is "holier" than all others.

And, as far as charitable giving, our government ranks behind Britain and Sweden in total amount of humanitarian aid, and per capita we're near the bottom of developed countries. (We do come out near the top on private giving – glad to see that.)

I love our land, and I love much about this country, but I don't take well to bellicose chest-thumping and jingoism, nor aggressive and blind patriotism. We should all keep our eyes wide open and do our best to be good citizens of this land as well as of the world. We're all in this together.