Made in the USA

If forecasts are right, by 2020 the largest English speaking country on earth will be China. I think a lot of Americans (and other western countries to a lesser extent) need a reality check on what's really important to equip their children for the world of the not-so-distant future…America's education system definitely seems to be letting them down from what I've seen. It's been in a bad shape for as long as I can remember (I went to school and did my undergraduate in California many moons ago).

I think America's best institutions will continue to attract the best and brightest for a long time to come. Students who are creative but focused and hard working won't have much problems.

But kids today who just 'get by and get bored' are going to be in for a rude awakening. What jobs will they have in 10 or 20 years time? Whatever they can do, plenty of foreign graduates will be able to do both better and cheaper.

The "elite" may still carry our country, but expect the gap between "haves" and "have nots" to widen — a lot.

I think you have to look beyond the Made in the USA thing also. I am sure that a more moral company like Patagonia, which does a lot for the environment and its workers both here and abroad, might be able to be perceived to be better than a hypothetical local cottage industry where the main person might get drunk every night and beat his spouse. Even within the big companies I don't think you could compare what Patagonia does to say either The North Face or Columbia.

Personally I don't think I will ever buy a Feathered Friends piece of gear because every time I have been out in Seattle and have stopped buy to see if a custom fit piece could be made I got so much resistance and guff from the floor sales people that it is not worth it. It is not because of their morals but because I found them to be a bunch of jerks.

Yup. I heard it straight from the manager. That's the reason he gave me for why the yummy tilapia fillets were gone.

Not wanting to do business with Communists is not always 'whining about keeping jobs'. Sometimes it is a personal, ethical choice.

Given that the government of Burma is refusing to allow relief efforts and thus condemning hundreds of thousands of their own people to death, should we buy from corporations owned by Burmese generals as long as we believe it promotes global equality and free trade?

"Not wanting to do business with Communists is not always 'whining about keeping jobs'. Sometimes it is a personal, ethical choice."

Indeed — except a personal, ethical choice based on wrong or outdated information is worse than mere whinning. China is "communist" only in name. Many of the companies there are actually privately owned — US, Europe, Japan, Taiwan are all huge investors in China — year after year. Chances are excellent that private enterprises rather than government entities are the ones that made the appliances, clothing and gear that many of us buy.

China is communistic in name when it comes to political and personal freedoms, such as the choice to have a 2nd or 3rd child; such as the choice of religion (Roman Catholicism is outlawed there!); such as the choice of political parties. It is only in the single arena of economic choices that one has freedom. Insofar as tyranny is considered, China beats all governments in history for evil tyranny. Whereas Nazi Germany committed genocide against a minority, China commits genocide against the majority — in all countries in all periods of world history, the first born was a minority and every-other born was the majority. In China, per government force, the every-other born are systmatically prevented or killed (except for exceptions which does not disprove my case). To me, China is at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to being civilized. They'll earn my respect when it honors families and conventional religions–two of the most basic entitlements of a civilized society that is not ruled by tyranny.

I don't want to prolong this tangent, this is a backpackinglight forum. But I'll end by saying, I'm all for trade with Chinese private companies (as opposed to Chinese prison camps). The introduction of Western goods, communication technologies, the internet, via the activity of trade, will do more to bring China into civilized world society. Insofar as backpackinglight goes, I keep an open mind, but I know some of the companies I do business with in BPL activities, subcontract to Chinese private companies and that's okay with me. I'll finish with an ironic Chinese trading viewpoint (my wife is Chinese and I have lots of Chinese friends), "the USA hates us when we don't buy enough from them and they hate us when we buy too much from the USA" (such as now, when the Chinese are driving up the costs of grains because they're buying too much US grains).

I agree with Roleigh's sentiments entirely. There is nothing outdated about China's human rights violations. They are clear and undeniable.Just ask the nearest Tibetan.

I'm curious Benjamin, should we have done business with the apartheid regime in South Africa? After all, they only oppressed certain races and they were non Communist and pro West to boot. The argument could be made that apartheid South Africa had a better human rights record than China, and was friendlier to the West, yet we chose to implement sanctions against South Africa and actively worked to replace the apartheid regime; while we are now urged to turn a blind eye to the oppressive policies of the Chinese Communists.

I smell a double standard. Personally, I'll do business with a home grown cottage company long before I would do business with either of the examples mentioned above.

That's just my opinion, obviously based on wrong, outdated information. Have a good one.

Raleigh and Timothy:

Trade is a catalyst for change — not a reward.

My views:

1. We need to continue engaging China — more trade, more tourism, more educational exchanges, etc. China has changed tremendously in the last 20 years, and it's these types of day-to-day contacts that help build reforms at the grass roots level.

2. I've always thought — and still do — that awarding the Olympics to China was IDIOTIC! Unlike trade, this is a true reward. And it was awarded prematurely.

Ben, two corrections. One, it's Roleigh not Raleigh (yes, I know my name breaks rules of spelling). Two, read my last paragraph, you'll see I agree with your second post but that does not change my opinion about where China is, regarding communism, tyranny, bottom of civilized history in terms of evil. But my beaf is with the Chinese government, not the Chinese people (as I said, my wife is Chinese).

Hmmm, you edited your post — your edited post is very good, I agree with you about the Olympics. I'd have held out until they recognize the right of families to decide their own growth and the right to belong to established religions recognized throughout the civilized world.

Benjamin:

You have steadfastly refused to answer simple, direct questions. I have asked if, since you believe we should do business with China despite their human rights violations, should we do business with Burma and should we have done business with apartheid South Africa? Are there any regimes in the world that we should apply sanctions to, or should we trade with anyone – regardless of what they do in order to hopefully benefit their peasants? Why will you not answer such simple questions?

Your refusal to answer speaks volumes. It is clear that you are a China apologist. Thats fine. At least we know where your true loyalties lie.

I also find your comparison of Taiwan and Korea to Communist China to be disingenuous. Taiwan and Korea were pro Western military dictatorships. While far from ideal, they were not Communist governments that fought a war against America using human wave tactics. China was. Korea and Taiwan did not invade their neighbors. China did. Taiwan and Korea have not ventured into international airspace and forced American aircraft down, detaining their crew. China has. Taiwan and Korea have not launched denial of service attacks and repeatedly attempted to penetrate Pentagon computer networks. China has. Taiwan and Korea have not forced women to abort their babies. China has.

Your attempt to equivocate the Korean experience with the Communist Chinese experience is inaccurate and deceptive.

Perhaps you can once again refuse to address my points and simply restate your pro China opinion. This is getting old, and after all, this is supposed to be about gear – not politics. It's obvious you are turning a blind eye to anything that doesn't fit your agenda; and there's no point in discussing the issue further if you are unwilling to be intellectually honest.

It's late and I'm going hiking in the morning. Have a good evening.

Roleigh, I revamped my post, but you beat me to it, reading the original version.

Sorry for typing your name wrong.

BTW, I grew up in Taiwan, so I am no friend of the Chinese government either. But the surest and most sustained way to bring about changes is at the grass roots level. Isolating the people because we don't like their government is just going to give the opposite effect.

Just look at what we did to Cuba! We isolated them, being ever ready to "reward" them with trade if only they will reform themselves. And it's been 50 years of waiting! Imagine if we had engaged them in all fronts… heck, Cuba would be at least at the level of Vietnam, if not China… or maybe even more open by now.

Timothy:

We are all hikers shooting the breeze around our virtual campfire — and I really don't appreciate your tone.

If trade is a reward, then I can appreciate why you think I might be a China apologist, trying to make a case that China somehow deserves it.

But, in my view, trade is NOT a reward, but actually a potent agent for change! And from this angle, you and I are actually on the same side — we both dislike the current government in China and we both want to see it changed. And as stated, bringing change through more trade and more contacts have been proven many times over — Taiwan and Korea aside, another former dictatorship that prospered economically and then transformed itself politically is Chile.

Dictatorships mostly lord it over poor, uneducated people. The cure is economic development and extensive contacts. There are no dictatorships anywhere in the world lording over a prosperous and educated citizenry! What you are doing, Timothy, is confusing medicine with reward.

I also find your comparison of Taiwan and Korea to Communist China to be disingenuous. Taiwan and Korea were pro Western military dictatorships. While far from ideal, they were not Communist governments that fought a war against America using human wave tactics. China was. Korea and Taiwan did not invade their neighbors. China did. Taiwan and Korea have not ventured into international airspace and forced American aircraft down, detaining their crew. China has. Taiwan and Korea have not launched denial of service attacks and repeatedly attempted to penetrate Pentagon computer networks. China has. Taiwan and Korea have not forced women to abort their babies. China has.

Erm, Timothy, I'm not sure what you are implying… that the US is free of such "evil" tactics? I'm not going to go into all the awful things that the US has done throughout history (if you are not aware of them you should learn more about world history, preferably from both sides of the coin, and if you deny them then you shouldn't be accusing anyone of not being intellectually honest), just suffice it to say that such comments are truly rich coming from someone from a country as destructive as the United States.

If all of us are supposed to keep an open mind about the United States, why not about China? Wanting to make sure that the average Chinese person isn't badly affected by world opinion isn't a bad thing. I think Ben is trying to find common ground and elicit change without causing hardship for people who have little say in how their government works. Also, China has troubles that the United States doesn't even come close to matching. Population of 3 billion, in a space roughly the same size as the Sates? Can anyone even really comprehend exactly what that means? How do you deal with a population like that? And what kinds of problems arise when you have that many people? How do you feed that many people? Do you allow the population to just go and breed at their leisure? I have met not a single person from mainland China (and I have a lot of mainland Chinese students at my university here in Japan… who are free to study and travel around the world, a very far cry from just ten years ago) who feels the measures are unreasonable. If the Chinese agree with it, what right does anyone outside have to condemn what they feel is best for them?

Don't get me wrong, I have little affection for the Chinese government (just like I have little affection for the American government). I fiercely condemn what they have done to TIbet and the other regions like Uighur (like I condemn what the US government has done to Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, the Philippines, the Mexicans, and most of all, the Native Americans). The Chinese government needs to change and Chinese people in general need to change their views and attitudes about the rest of the world (as Americans in general also need to do). But just as Americans deserve to live lives without hardship, so do the Chinese. At the moment there is no comparison in terms of standards of living.

This is a hiking site. This kind of conversation is just chaff (where it really should be located) and no one has any obligation whatsoever to answer to any talk about politics or social morality. To get irritated when someone might not want to engage in this conversation loses sight of what this site is about. Please, let's calm down and remember that there is a big difference between what the Chinese government is doing and the friendly, worldwide spirit of the members here.

Absolutely brilliant post Miguel. Now, can someone who runs this site move this thread to chaff?

I'm not going to go into all the awful things that the US has done throughout history (if you are not aware of them you should learn more about world history, preferably from both sides of the coin, and if you deny them then you shouldn't be accusing anyone of not being intellectually honest), just suffice it to say that such comments are truly rich coming from someone from a country as destructive as the United States.

That is the single most ludicrous statement in this entire thread. The simple fact of the matter is that the Unites States has fed, clothed and freed from oppression more people than any other nation in the history of the planet. I challenge you to name a nation that has provided more assistance to more people or has fought wars to free more people than the United States of America.

It is because of the United States that Japan is no longer run by a brutal military dictatorship. It is because of the United States that Taiwan is a free and prosperous nation. It is because of the United States that South Korea isn't living in the stone age and starving like their Communist brothers in the north. It is because of the United States that Europe has been provided with a defense umbrella to recover from their own two self inflicted massive wars, after the Unites States sacrificed hundreds of thousands of it's finest to stamp out the Nazi menace. It is because of the United states that the planet is no longer menaced by the likes of Nikita Khrushchev. It is because of the United States that the people of Iraq have a chance to build a free and prosperous country if they choose to.

Yes, I can see just how evil and destructive America is.

Give me a break. You Miguel, need to think long and hard about history, and about what kind of nation you would be living in right now if it weren't for the "evil" and "destructive" United States.

This is the last I have to see on this

"You have steadfastly refused to answer simple, direct questions ….. … Your refusal to answer speaks volumes. It is clear that you are a China apologist… "

Reading the posts I think Ben's position was pretty clear. And the likelihood of someone who grew up in Taiwan being a "China apologist" is pretty slim. But what you're really saying, in a quite bullying manner, is that anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't have a valid point of view. No shades of grey at all. The irony of your "for or against us" approach is that it's exactly the approach the Chinese government (and their educated elites) take. Witness the way Chinese students studying in Australia harassed Australians (in their own bloody country, for God's sake) when they were protesting in Canberra against China's policies in Tibet during the Olympic torch relay.

There is a widely held theory that as the Chinese (by which I mean the PRC) become richer they will democratise because of the pressure of an enormous and growing middle-class that is wired, educated and travelled. The theory seems to be that the Communist Party will wilt away as the Chinese become global net citizens. That strikes me as staggeringly naive. It is the educated Chinese middle class that are the most stridently nationalistic, bullying and inflexible. Sure they have internet connections but they use them to, for example, conduct elaborate on-line fantasies about what they will do to Japanese women when they invade Japan. I clearly remember a PRC colleague – a lawyer, who'd studied at a good university in the UK and spoke English fluently – pointing out to me with pride in his voice the place in front of the Japanese embassy in Beijing where, as he put it "the patriotic students" had protested against some slight by the Japanese. Never mind that the "the patriotic students" had been a rent-a-mob organised by the government, that their presence and behaviour and the damage they did to the embassy was in contravention of every diplomatic convention that has existed in the last two hundred years or which the Chinese had signed up to, or that the Chinese state was mysteriously unable to bring these unruly "students" under control. Or the Chinese client – highly intelligent, educated and multilingual – who stopped referring work to us when he discovered that both my boss and I had Japanese wives.

My own view is that the Chinese will get richer (for a while at least) but will not democratise in any meaningful sense. The Communist Party's hold on the country will not weaken. At all. Few Chinese will ever query or even think to query the officical government line on anything. The internet in China will not be a force for change but a tool of reaction. And there is plenty of trouble ahead for China's neighbours and any country that does business with them.

"It is because of the United States that Japan is no longer run by a brutal military dictatorship."

Exactly. Instead it is run by a single-party gerontocracy who, to the extent they are still alive, WERE the brutal military dictatorship.

After the war the Americans did, for a couple of years, try to create a liberal Japanese state but the realpolitik of the Cold War brought back the militarists because they cannily portrayed themselves to the Americans as anti-communist. Which hardly explained their penchant for centralised bureaucracy and five-year plans.

This thread should not have been started G-Spot.

As a Scotsmam who has a big extended family in the US can i say that this 'discussion' that i have been following with unease has went far enough?
There is a saying in Scotland. "We're a' Jock Thamsons bairns!"
People are people the world over. Or as the Scottish poet Rabbie Burns said, "A mans a man, for a' that".

Arapiles:

You may be correct that the Chinese will not democratize. Nothing's for sure, but I think they will — as evidenced in Taiwan.

We should not confuse democracy with nationalism. A country can be democratic and also inflexibly, totally "in your face" nationalistic. I am sure I don't need to actually cite an example in this case. :)

This thread started out with the simple question;
"which gear companies make their stuff in the USA".

I was the first to respond with a simple, though incomplete, list of some very good USA manufacturers. Over time the thread morphed into a political rant.

If preferring and buying high quality UL and SUL gear that just so happens to be made in the USA makes me politically incorrect so be it.

Hike your own hike, live your own life! Isn't there a saying that goes something like "judge not others least ye be judged yourself"?

Thom:

I am pretty sure no one here has ever said or even hinted that "preferring and buying high quality UL and SUL gear that just so happens to be made in the USA makes [you] politically incorrect". :)

Chaff by any name is still chaff, and this thread has definitely degenerated to chaff — far from the original subject of what products are manufactured in the USA.

Is anyone at BPL actually paying any attention? Or care?

JRS

OK, I'm one of the guilty ones… so fessing a few more names (I've used their gear and I recommend them highly):

Fanatic Fringe
Mini Bull Design
Platypus
First Need purifier
ZPack

Methinks that's better than saying five Hail Mary's…