Alcohol Stove

John,

please excuse me for weighing in here. being somewhat familiar with the type of person Dr. J happens to be, i’m guessing that he probably will not reply publicly to defend himself. so, withouth getting emotionally involved myself, but attempting to remain as neutral as possible, and even handed, i ask you to please read the following words.

i had some good words about your stoves recently in another thread. please understand that i’m trying to give you some helpful advice using the same medium you selected for the post that i’m replying to.

i have followed all of the posts in multiple threads on the matter of your video & stoves. it seems that several have started to weigh in on your side, supporting you.

this recent post of yours, to which i am replying will, IMHO, most likely have a negative effect on your support and possibly your business (but i sincerely hope that it does not – at least, for my part, i intend to still do business with you and of course BPL).

you wrote “I probably shouldn’t mention this but…”. your “gut” instinct was right. IMHO, you shouldn’t have mentioned it. this would have been better handled (again???) privately with Dr. J.

it’s understandable that your feelings might be injured, but airing publicly a private matter is, IMHO, not a good thing for you (or anyone) – particularly here on this website.

there might be some public service in warning others about a possibly dishonest merchant, or a repeated problem with a merchant, a warning that might affect others, however, in this instance, that’s not the case.

there will be some who read your words and will immediately “take up the offense” (which they shouldn’t) and side with Dr. J, when all of us should just stay out of this (myself included).

for my part, i’ve had nothing but excellent service from Dr. J and his website. likewise, i have had similar excellent service on multiple occasions from MiniBullDesigns. i will not hesitate to do business with either of you again.

i urge you to try to rectify this situation with Dr. J privately. nothing but good can come of it, if calm minds prevail when attempting to resolve all issues involved.

please, if by chance i have further hurt you by my words here, i apologize. i meant no offense. i only wish to offer some helpful (not hurtful) advice. i sincerely hope that all parties involved can come to a peaceful solution to all problems and that this would not only prove mutually beneficial to you both, but to those of us who utilize your respective services.

John, if i may make one further suggestion, please. It might be a good idea (please give it some careful consideration) to remove your recent triple post by replacing all of the text in each one with the words “Post Deleted”. The sooner the better so that as few as possible read them. I do believe that, leaving them intact, will have a negative impact and not produce whatever effect you had hoped for.

Sincerely,
pj

Paul Johnson

John,

i’m not sure that my prev. words on the “link” to a website were clear. i may have confused the issue by being vague.

i, totally on my own, unilaterally removed the link so as not to overstep any boundaries. i felt, for my part, that it was better to err on the side of caution.

however, after reading the latest post on Forum Policy, i’m thinking that i made a mistake and overreacted by removing the link since batteries are related to headlamps (and i don’t have any vested interest in the website selling inexpensive coin cells).

i’m sorry if i confused either you or anyone else. i will try to be more careful in the future.

John is welcome to post grievances about online merchants in our forums. I believe that it’s valuable information and consumers should be made aware of organizations that rip people off or otherwise treat them poorly. There is a caveat to this practice, for the reader. Historically, and is not intended at all to John, because I don’t know him well enough, folks who “complain a lot” on the Internet may not be the most reliable sources of information. There are always two sides to the story, and how customer grievances are handled by a company don’t always reflect their core ethic. In addition, customers that complain typically don’t share all the information about the incident. Again, this is a caution to readers that read negative info about others, and is intended to be general advice, not specifically related to what’s happening in this thread.

I won’t be addressing John’s grievance with BPL in a public forum. It has already been addressed in private emails several weeks ago. If John has an outstanding grievance with me, he can choose to contact me again privately.

However, this is a Make Your Own Gear forum and this discussion, if it needs to continue, should be moved to:

Chaff

I didn’t mind John’s original post being here. I simply wanted more info about the stove to be posted so that it wouldn’t be perceived as a traffic troll, and used it as context to remind folks about our forum policies so we can keep things on track.

Yes, it’s a cool stove. Tell us more about it. Since you posted in a make your own gear forum, tell us how to make it.

Ryan

Ryan wrote:

“Yes, it’s a cool stove. Tell us more about it. Since you posted in a make your own gear forum, tell us how to make it.”

Right. That’s all I, as a forum reader, am interested in. Not so interested in the “drama”… and maybe that’s too strong a word… but you know what I mean. Your roaring alcohol stove seems cool. So what’s the deal? Tell us more :) I understand if you’d prefer not to at this point tho’. I didn’t see all your posts today before you deleted them… but I’m guessing things got a little “chaffy”. That’s too bad.

O live deep in the Maine woods where I can’t hurt anybody. But next time you come past exit 157 south you will be within 10 miles of my driveway. E-Mail me and I will give you directions—Tinny@minibulldesign.com — I hope this doesn’t break forum policy if so i apologize in advance.

I guess the problem is that you can’t just kick back and show something to people on a forum that you are proud of without giving away all your hard earned work. And opening up the chance that someone else will take your idea and run with it. I really like showing people my new ideas and answering their comments and questions and I even posted the video using PUTFILE so it wouldn’t have any connection with my website but I have gotten 75% bad feedback and actually have been banned from two forums for this video. Gee I guess people just don’t like new ideas, i shouldn’t judge the public using my own values as a yardstick. I really didn’t want to sell this i just wanted to share the intense visual treat with people of like minds. I really thought the video was very cool!!—Tinny—

You seem to reflect most of the feedback I have gotten so far.–It is noise so what is the deal tell me how to make it.— Did anybody even notice it is so hot it is melting the potstand and how stable it is burning. i feel that this type of comment is very negative. People have been making alcohol stoves for many years and no one has ever gotten this type of performance out of one. This is a major breakthrough. But nobody seems to want to admit that. Well I will return the favor by saying this. If you want to know the secret. Start building stoves and experimenting, in about 3 years you should have the answer. I have learned a valuble lesson on this —People don’t want to see new things unless they make them themselves.

Post deleted

John,

My apogees for the BS you’ve received from 75% of the so-called enlightened. I understand the investment in time and money involved with the development of a new idea / project and your need to keep some of the details to yourself. I’m interested in your Jet boil project and would like to keep up on its progress. If you have any problems posting further developments please feel free to correspond through my email at roger_alsborg@hotmail.com. .

Sincerely,
Roger Alsborg

John,

loved the video of your roaring inferno. maybe you want to call it Dante’s Inferno or some such thing? it does conjur up images…

does it make any sense to change the pot stand to a diff metal that won’t melt? am i missing the whole point of the stove? (probably. i’m not the sharpest tool in the shed) if it can be redesigned and productionized, i will stand in line to buy one from you. [love your Mini-Sith…and your…Sith – both purchased directly from you…[haven’t had a chance to try the AT yet], oh…and your Stealth stove i bought from this website. great stoves. i have some others purchased elsewhere that are quite good also, but have settled on one of yours every trip . it’s the combo of performance and weight. usually, it’s the Mini-Sith that is in my pack. i’m in the process of giving the other, i.e. non-MBD, stoves i own away to good homes. can’t see that i’ll ever use them again.]

>>”3yrs”
good for you. probably would have taken me twice as long (maybe three times as long???) to reach the stage that you are at.

please keep participating in these Forums. we’d be the poorer without you.

If anyone is unfamiliar with John’s stoves, they are definitely worth a look – even if you own some others already. Priced right. Perform excellent. Light weight. He definitely knows how to make a great alcohol stove.

Hey John,

I didn’t mean my “noisy” comment to be negative at all… not in the slightest! I’m really sorry you took it that way. Really… I am. I just meant that from the video we can’t really tell what is unique about the stove. It seems pretty cool… but I just don’t really understand what I’m seeing. Of course I don’t expect you to give away your secret. Not at all. I just thought maybe you could discuss it a bit without giving away the specifics that’s all. Maybe talk about how how long you’ve been working on it… if you came accross it by accident while trying something else… where you think it might lead… how well the prototype performs… how much better you think you might be able to make it with more work… I don’t know… I really don’t know… just anything at all really that you’d like to share. I’m really interested in your stove and in all of your work. I didn’t mean to offend… and I’m sorry if I did. Keep on doing you thing man… and I look forward to seeing what results from your funky roaring can stove.

Cheers,
Dave

Ok that is better i was begenning to think I was the last person on the earth with a sense of curiosity. I literally stumbled onto this design while building a prototype for simmering after many request for a stove to poach eggs and fish–i know –POACHED FISH???? I said the same thing!!!–anyway I made this closed top design with a thumbscrew filler port and just punched in two jets at a random spot 180 degrees apart, Filled it up and primed it. I turned out the lights to watch the action and observe the jet pattern and burn. This thing started squirting fuel out the jets and onto the walls of the shop along with a large ark of flames going straight up i grabed my mug full of water and got outside thinking this thing is going to blow and burn down the shop. After watching from a distance for about one minute it stabalized and was putting out this beautiful vertical blue flame pattern and roaring like a cutting torch. I slowly walked closer and looked at was going on thinking this is a once in a lifetime experience and will never happen again. The two jets purely by accident were both directly in front of the thumbscrew and were shooting a focused flame directly into the top part of the thumbdcrew where you grasp it to turn it. The screw was red hot and the flames were directed almost straight up. The odd thing was the pressure was so high that the flames were burning a full 3/4 inch away from the jet opening so the only place you could see any fire was at the thumbacrew just hovering there as it burned. After it burned all the fuel i inspected it and realized that four things had all fallen into place purely by accident to make this happen, the number of jets, the position of the jets, the position of the thumbscrew and the size of the can which put the jets exactly at the correct distance from the screw head. if any of these things had been different it would have been a so so simmer stove. I built a dozen more that night and by morning had the basic theory figured out.–Tinny—

http://media.putfile.com/SST-no-tricks

John,

I too enjoyed the video of your new stove design. Looked and sounded like a MSR Dragonfly on steroids! A few general questions without prying into the design specifics:

How fast does it boil a pint of water?

How is it for ballpark fuel efficiency?

Have you been able to reign in the fuel squirting on start up that you mentioned?

Thanks,
Al

Tinny,

as you know Fleming discovered Penicillin the same way – purely by chance.

maybe i’m wrong, but it think that you gotta’ see that you’ve got the makings of a winner here. make the few design changes so that it doesn’t melt the polar ice caps and…

if you build it, they will buy it.

with an insulated bottom (like in a couple of other stoves you already sold me) this might be the perfect answer to winter alcohol stoves?

look at the interest in the alc. “jetboil” concept introduced a few weeks ago using the Foster’s can pot. also, the interest in your Heineken can pot with the handle. now, this winner.

this is really a “win-win” situation if you decide to tweak it so that our spy satellites don’t think that a ballistic missile has been launched from our home soil (or Canada – i’m sure that our Northern Brothers will want one – they sure get enough cold & snow in parts up there).

win for you = sales and the personal satisfaction that you’ve made others’ outdoor experience more enjoyable. (you must feel this already. how many times have you come across someone on the trail using one of your stoves? i can only imagine how that must please you. you seem to be that kind of guy who wants to help others.)

win for the UL backpacker = a great stove.

your only problem will be, how do fit 26hrs of work building stoves into a 24hr day in order to fill the flood of orders ? [Maine…that’s not too, too far from the No. Pole. Maybe you could borrow some of Santa’s helpers?]

The latest test is up on my adventure site which is a daily blog of my life at http://www.minibulldesign.com —The squirting fuel was caused by a gross over fueling of the SST to the point that there was no room for gas to build up so it pushed out solid fuel.

I have put a baffel under the thumbscrew to direct the flame more upward and to make it run a little cooler–watch the video at putfile—

http://media.putfile.com/Picture-19429

Esoteric stove designs aside, if you want a light, quick and effective boiler system, consider this one – a 2-oz solo kit-in-a can – or a 3.25 oz tandem kit — tested with over 600 meals on the trail. Use a 24 oz. Heineken can for tandem or a 12 oz. Heineken for solo. The Fuzzy burner (modified for the solo version) is the pot support. Three cups of boiling water will cook almost any backpacking meal for 2 using the boil-and-set method. And 12 oz. will do just fine for one person. With boil-and-set cooking, this system is all you really need. And it fits in the can. These instructions are sketchy — enough for anyone with a lick of sense.

Version 1: tandem kit-in-a-can
weight, 3.25 oz with 2 cups
One 24 oz. Heineken can (because its flanges resist crushing)with the top removed and a 19 gauge stainless wire band holding a wire bail below the top flange of the can.
One Fuzzy’s Lil’ Stove made from a V-8 or Red Bull can. (see Fuzzy’s web site.)These little cans fit inside the bottom ring of the large Heineken for secure pot support.
Complete the kit with a foil wind screen, see-through fuel measure, 2 spoons, 2 Ziploc 8 oz. cups, a book of paper matches (in a 2×3 zip bag)and a foil lid. A folded rectangle of flue tape makes an adequate lid handle. Ziploc’s 8-oz ‘disposable’ storage cups fit neatly on the 24 oz. Heineken and weigh about the same as the bottom of a Platypus. And they are easier to keep clean.

Version 2: solo kit-in-a-can
weight: 1.8 oz. with cup
One 12 oz. Heineken can with the lid cut down so the burner will fit, and a 19 gauge stainless band holding a 19 gauge bail. This small can presents a challenge because the bottom rim is smaller then the smallest available cans, and one thing that makes this system light is using the burner as the pot support. See below.
One modified Fuzzy burner, using a miniature V-8 can bottom, cut 1 1/8 inches (28mm) tall, but making the top from the upper 1 3/4 inches (45mm) of a 12 oz. can.

These instructions assume familiarity with the Fuzzy burner – otherwise, check Fuzzy’s website before proceeding. Clean and sand the cans. Cut them to the right heights. Remove the lid of the 12 oz can and cut the can 1 3/4 inches below the top. Cut the can top to bottom and roll the rim carefully around a 1 inch cylinder until the flared part of the 12 oz can fits comfortably in the V-8 can bottom. Again, refer to Fuzzy’s site for the basic idea. Trim some of the extra overlap, but leave 1/2 inch overlapping. Use an ice pick to punch a hole near the top edge of the V-8 can and through the overlap of the 12 oz. can. Pop rivet the 3 layers together. Use a piece of wire to make the creases between the bottom and top parts and punch the 4 vent holes in the top – all according to Fuzzy. The 12-oz Heineken will fit neatly on the small burner. Add the windscreen, a book of matches, fuel measure, spoon and a lid. I use either the bottom of a Platypus cut to hold 1.5 cups or a Ziploc storage cup.

Sounds like you might burn your hands using this rig or worse dump 3 cups of boiling water in your lap or on your feet

no problem. The wire bail is above the wind screen and out of the heat. It takes only a twist of the bail to make it stand upright (and hold the lid on securely. Never had a burn. And believe me, a bail is a lot safer than a pot lifter or the side handles on many cup-pots. Now THOSE get hot.

This seems to be a much safer and simple way to stay light and safe. But requires more work—

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=9/25819020572.jpg&s=x1

I went to the zen site and looked at the fussy stove it is not very efficient and is a side burner not well suited to a narrow beer can pot and also not very durable. I think the original Don johnson PHOTON would be a much better choice. I also see fuzzy is burning 70% rubbing alcohol? That is going to cause alot of smut and poor performance.

The fuzzy will run on iso, but denatured burns cleaner and hotter. Fuzzy designed it for kids. As I said, I have cooked over 600 meals on the V-8 can version. No problem with the narrow can-‘pot’ – although I obcessed about it enough to develop a couple of interesting burners before I pulled my head out of the speculative zone and actually tested the Fuzzy. Wide pots (up to a point) turned out to be a little more efficient. The 12 oz can with the small topped Fuzzy I described earlier (sort of) will boil in under 5 minutes with 0.5 oz (15ml) of denatured alcohol.
Of course, I eat to hike – rather than hike to eat. My cooking is very basic boil-and-set. A kit-in-a-can is not for the gormet.

I know that everybody goes with what they know. And if it works don’t fix it! But all things said, the sodacan stove has come along way sense Barny and Fred flintstone roamed the earth. You will simply be amazed at how much easier ,safer, faster, and just more fun, a pot with a comfortable and insulsted handle is. And a topburner stove with a closed top will make your life much more enjoyable. And save a ton of fuel–alcohol–

For lifting a hot can pot… I’ve tried everything and found that the best (and safest) solution is my coat hanger can grabber. You can see pics near the end of the Ultralight Outfitters Esbit stove thread. It’s rock solid, very safe, trail tested, and it stays very cool. I’ve tried a bail and found it great for lifting… dangerous and uncomfortable for pouring. And it’d not as packable. I haven’t tried a handle (I don’t know how to braze and don’t have the tools to do that) but I prefer my grabber since it can be removed and packed inside the can. Also, if my can pot gets too many creases and dings or gets accidently sat upon… I can just buy a new can and I don’t have to do any more work or spend any money to have a new pot with a handle.

link to esbit thread

Vick wrote “A kit-in-a-can is not for the gormet.”

Perhaps not. However, have you tried Enertia trail foods? They are very good… and single serving!!! They are dehydrated instead of freeze dried… I think that accounts for the better taste. It also have inspired me to move on to the next step in my lightweight backpacking education… making my own boil and set meals at home. That way you can make great food with real, whole, natural ingredients. All you need is a dehyrdator and maybe a vacum sealer for packaging. Or you could even package in paper and not have to carry that out.

Also, I suppliment my one hot meal of the day with real food during the rest of the day… whole grains, real fruit, raw veggies and dip… etc. There is nothing better on the trail than to have real food… it’s worth every ounce… both mentally and physically. There is nothing like carving up a fresh firm red plum during a break or having fresh veggies with your lunch etc. Beats gummie bears and powerbars.