Philosophical questions about moving towards UL

You're already there.

You're already there. +1 Under 25 pounds, no frame needed for me.

My pack weight varries with the season, obviously winter being a bit heavier. I stopped using a hip belt last year for all seasons. I don't think I have gone over 15 or 16 lbs total weight. I am usually at 9 or 10 lbs..winter I will hit about 15. Last week I got a new pack from MLD that I was hoping to use for winter. The Burn. I wanted to love it like I do my Core pack but the hip belt was the deal breaker for me. It is non removable and it was uncomfortable for me. Honestly I think it depends on the person and the pack and the weight..if you are under 15 lbs total weight and feel comfortable hiking and climbing without a hip belt..by all means go for it. Some people like it some don't.

I use a frameless pack even with a winter load up to 35 lbs total pack weight. Using a frameless pack is all about packing it properly to avoid collapse. At your weight there is no reason to hesitate using a frameless pack. Also If you don't use a hip belt, then a frame serves no purpose; A frame is only there to transfer weight to your hips. That being said I always take a pack with a hip belt, even with a total weight of 8 lbs, I just don't like weight on my shoulders or having my pack sway when I move.

I like the fact that you can utilize the pad pocket on the Kumo. Helps stiffen it up. But IMO (and I know many here at BPL would disagree) 12 lbs is max for a frameless pack. Above that weight I want an aluminum or carbon fiber stay and a REAL hip belt.

This is so much about mindset, expectations, and personal comfort levels. I've been through all ends of the spectrum but have ultimately developed a pretty hearty "good enough" attitude when it comes to gear. For years and years I've carried my GoLite Jam2, the early frameless version, with the pad sleeve and foam removed. I had a ULA Catalyst thinking I'd use it for bigger loads, but dumped it quickly in favor of just sticking with the Jam. I can carry up to 40 in it without a frame. It'll buckle at that weight and put a lot on my shoulders, but I can do it and the comfort hasn't prevented me from doing anything I've tried to do. I find I can go without a hipbelt at about 20 and under, but less is always better. But I've got big shoulders and back so weight up top doesn't bug me….Beefy hipbelts and their fit also tend to bother me more than weight on my shoulders does. Some people around here seem to switch packs every two weeks. I sort of believe the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. Every pack will have quirks and limitations. I'm love my Jam because I know what they are and I can tolerate them. Personally, I'd be fine at your weight without a frame. I'd get it closer to 15 before going without the hipbelt if you don't like weight on your back. Why ditch the Circuit? Trying to shave the last pound (which is fine)? For what it's worth, if there's nothing wrong with it and it carries well, it might not be worth getting into new issues with a new pack. Just lighten your kit and leave the pack alone?

Hike with your Cicuit with the hip belt off

I should pull the hipbelt and stay out of my Circuit and see how that works. Thanks, all!

I think a hipbelt, if it's a lightweight one, is good regardless some weight is on hips, it keeps the load from shifting around

"Hike with your Cicuit with the hip belt off" +1 on that. If the load doesn't bother your shoulders and back, fine. If you get to SUL a frameless pack makes sense, but they are a pain to load, needing careful placement of the innards. You can start off with your hip belt snugged up and slack off for a break or on the return leg when food and water have been consumed. The belt does help stabilize the load. I like having extra capacity in my pack rather than always loading on the hairy edge and needing to be careful loading every little thing. You definitely want to change the pack last, after you're done tweaking your kit and you are literally comfortable with the results. A SUL is nifty mid-summer, but not so much for the shoulder seasons and more fantasy than reality for winter stuff. Load it up and go for a walk from home without the belt.

Wow, I just went onto ULA's website and I see that their packs have gained a lot of weight. Same thing at Brian's new home, SMD. Must be a lot of people out there who've learned how miserable it is to carry a pack that's not sturdy enough to do the job. I think it would be foolish to go without a hip belt on the Circuit. That's not how the pack was designed. I had an Ohm 2.0 2012 version (26 oz). Just didn't fit me right. Perhaps a newer one would fit better. IMO the Ohms (and Circuits) are shaped too long and narrow… kind of like a tall cylinder with a small diameter. Matthew, it sounds like a 30 liter capacity is all you'll need. Same with me. I was looking at the new SMD Flight 30, but I don't know about the harness. It doesn't have a frame either. Weighs 27 oz (without belt). That might be just the pack for you since you're trying to wean yourself away from a hip belt. The harness somewhat alleviates the shoulder stresses you'd get from going beltless. I agree with Dale 100% about frameless packs. Everything has to be placed in them just right. Crammed too tight and it doesn't ride comfortably. Packed too loose it doesn't ride comfortably. ULA says " no frameless pack is comfortable with over 18 lbs". I'll stick with a 12 lb max. I love frameless packs for SUL though.

If it was me (and it was me a few years ago), I'd stick with your very comfortable if only semi-light pack until all your other stuff has reached its lightest configuration., then try a frameless pack to see if you like it. I went to a frameless pack, but found myself desiring a minimal frame to keep the weight on my hips, even when my total pack weight was 15-20 lbs. Everyone is different and many prefer frameless but my base weight is still right at about 10 lbs in summer and find that I prefer the frame above 15 lbs total pack weight and a waist belt at nearly any weight., even if it's just a 1" webbing on a light pack to keep it from swaying when I am moving fast.

I haven't switched to frameless yet either, but I'm also using the strategy Tom suggested.

I carried a MLD burn on my thru hike of the PCT. (And many other trails including my recent low to high failure) I carried it without a hip belt. The max I carried was just over 30 lbs. (4 liters of water+ 6 days of food) it was heavy but it honestly wasn't that bad. I really like the freeing feeling of a small backpack and no sternum strap/hip belt. To each their own but as long as as the trip is 7 days or less I'll go with the burn.

I heartily disagree with Max on his claim that 35 lbs. can be comfortably carried without a frame. I heartily AGREE with Monte that 12 lbs. is the max that can be comfortably carried without a fame. That's why I use an Osprey EXOS 58 backpack. The small weight of an EXOS tubular perimeter frame FAR offsets the comfort it delivers. My UL attitude is that "Comfort is King". Maybe I'll carry a few ounces of extra weight for my mattress (Ex. a Prolite regular instead of a 3/4 length mattress) but by morning I've had a good night's sleep. Does my iPod Nano and ear buds add too much weight? Nope.

1) At what total pack weight should I start to think about downsizing to a lighter frameless pack? Never for me. I need the weight off my shoulders and on my hips… hard to do that without a frame 2) Is there a total pack weight where most people become comfortable about not using a hipbelt? I do not like wearing a hip belt. Never for me. I want the weight off my shoulders and on my hips. Only time I don't use a hipbelt is when I have a maybe 5 lb day pack… billy

As my baseweight often ranges 9 to 9.5 lbs for multi-day trips (including 1.75 lbs of camera gear which mainly hangs off the shoulder straps), I really haven’t missed having a frame. Carrying up to mid-20’s without a frame can be done in all-day comfort if you pack it right. Carrying up to 30 lbs for a few hours works fine, though my shoulders will start to hurt if it’s longer than that. I suspect with the right training, your shoulders can get use to carrying more. But I never need to. In 2007, I bought a frameless ULA Conduit (what would become the CDT). My average baseweight was ~12. My first trip with it to Lassen Volcanic NP for a 4.5 day loop wasn’t too good. My shoulders were killing me by the end of each day. However, I didn’t give up on going frameless. I started experimenting with different ways of packing it and found a way where I could carry it all day in comfort. I knew I had dialed it in after a 6 day trip, often with 4L of water, where it carried comfortably. The main thing is to pack it with the least amount of empty space inside as possible (removing most of the empty gaps) to make the pack as rigid as possible. However, due to fear, I took a ULA Circuit on my 2009 PCT thru-hike due to fear of massive water weights, long resupplies, and bear can along with snow gear. Though looking back, I shouldn’t have bothered. The Circuit was too big for my gear most of the time. If I were to do it again, I’d happily go with my CDT (which replaced the Conduit in 2012 after it got damaged from soaking in bleach after a bottle failure in storage). I haven’t looked back and eventually sold off the Circuit as I never used it again. I’ve found the black Garcia bear can will just fit inside the CDT (though you have to pack around it carefully as you don’t want the pack up against your back getting a rounded shape). Fall of 2014, I hiked the Tahoe-Yosemite Trail (about half is different from the PCT), where I had to pick up a bear can for Yosemite at Kennedy Meadows Resort (north) for the last 4.5 days. Due to an injury, I choose to hike without the hipbelt on the CDT for the last 4 days (fastened it shut and let the front of the belt rest against my back) with that bear can. It wasn’t too bad; though I suspect my shoulders had been built up some after a few hundred miles of hiking that summer prior to that trip. I did have to stop for a break every 2 hours to rest my shoulders as they would start to hurt a little. But after a short break, they were fine for the next 2 hours. What I learned from that trip was I could hike without a hipbelt. But even that minimalist one on the CDT did some good as it was definitely more comfortable hiking with it. Some of the weight is obviously being transferred to it as my shoulders never bother me when using it.

So we've learned that individuals have individual experiences and tolerances. You'll just have to find out for yourself.

1) At what total pack weight should I start to think about downsizing to a lighter frameless pack? Matthew, this will vary a LOT. I carry my Gossamer Gear Murmur with 23 pounds of weight for two weeks. No frame, no real hip belt (just a strap.) Most of my trips are one or two week trips. I carry my GG Miniposa (obsolete) with 29 pounds easily doing photo work and fishing for the same length of time. I carry the Gorilla with 27 pounds and was not the happiest carrying that weight. A lot will depend on the pack style and arrangement. The Golite was very comfortable at 20 pounds but was painful at 25. A typical UL base weight starts at less than 10 pounds. Food/water/fuel adds more, of course, so dropping 3 pounds is still needed to get to UL ranges (between 5 and 10 pounds base.) My typical base weight is between 8 and 11 pounds. Depending on the weather, but mostly I use a kit designed for a low of around 25F-27F. In Spring and Fall, I use a heavier bag and bring a saw to have a fire. so this accounts for the weight difference. Anyway, you should look into any pack in the 1-1.5 pound,(16-24oz)range. There is no reason to get heavier, just more weight to carry. Comfort is had through packing, frames and pseudo-frames (pads.) For example: A 5 layer fan-fold pad (Nightlite) at 10oz will *just* fit into my MiniPosa and act as a pseudo-frame for carrying up to 35 pounds. 2) Is there a total pack weight where most people become comfortable about not using a hipbelt? I do not like wearing a hip belt. This depends on you. I have gone with 7 pounds for a weekend at 30F and been comfortable, not just surviving. I always use at least a strap to prevent the pack sway that wastes so much energy. I like using a hip belt for hopping across streams, scrambling and crossing blow-downs. At less than ten pounds you really don't need this for weight carrying, though. It just helps to stabilize the pack. With heavier weights, the hipbelt keeps the weight off my shoulders and spine, and the corresponding musculature. I carry the same weight (around 5-10 pounds) on my shoulders, but the rest sits on my hip belt. I prefer a lightly padded one (so it does not creep with padding compression during walking) and cinched fairly tight around the top of my hips.

"At what total pack weight should I start to think about downsizing to a lighter frameless pack?" As mentioned, this will vary from person to person. For me, the number I would have told you at 24 y/o is a lot bigger than the number I will tell you at 44 y/o. I carried Alice packs ranging from 75-100 lbs on my shoulders in my 20s. I carried 30 lbs in my Prophet this summer and found that to be the absolute upper limit of what I'm willing to carry these days on my shoulders. My shoulders were fine but I felt back pain from compression. This pain lingered on for a few weeks after the hike, resulting in some tingling in my arms and hands. I've since decided that I'll stick with frameless for loads that will be under 25lbs total weight at the trailhead but preferably under 20.

As I stated here many times, I like framed packs for true backpacking overnight or longer. That said the only "frameless" pack situation I can recommend is: > cut a full length closed cell foam pad like a Ridgecrest in half (widthwise). > roll each half up > insert these rolled halves vertically against the inside back of the pack (preferably into 2 sew-in fabric sleeves with button down tops) That will give you the necessary rigidity for transferring weight to a PADDED HIPBELT (not some wimpy-a$$ nylon waist strap)

That sounds effective.

I'm a tall guy and was using a medium sized frameless backpack. It was a few inches too short from my shoulders to my hips. My loads, most of my trips are overnight, are close to 10Lb. I have carried 15Lb comfortably without a belt. As a frameless pack without a belt the size really didn't matter. Where it did was that I couldn't center the heavy stuff exactly where I wanted it, opposite my belly button. Since it was short the weight rode a tad high. But at 10Lb it doesn't really make a difference. Or, so I thought. I just got a pack that is custom sized for me. On a whim I had it made with a thin belt strap, thinking I'd cut it off it proved useless. It's also got a lot of volume: 44 Liters (2800 cu in), extra space for longer trips or cold weather. This pack allows the heavy stuff to sit exactly opposite my belly button and that is more comfortable. Not life changing, but I notice. Could be in my head. What blew my mind were two tricks: First. I can roll my CCF Pad to exactly the size needed. I tie to size with a short piece of string. The "burrito" sits vertically in the pack and is held in place by tightening the top down on it. The extra space around the roll is empty. Second. My CCF pad is thin, it is long and wide. When I closed the belt for the first time the weight transfered to my hips and the pack simply melted to my back. I adjust the shoulder straps depending on how I want to distribute the weight between my hips and shoulders. Usually it feels even. Since the loads are small the thin belt feels just fine. That's my 2 cents of experience. Cheers!

So you tie the pad with string before you insert it into the pack… I'm assuming you do this as an empty, hollow tube and then you stuff your gear into the tortilla once it is in the pack. Si?