Philosophical questions about moving towards UL

Correcto! This way it holds the shape and I can distribute the load vertically. I'll even cinch it the next day with less food. The key is to get the top down to hold the pad in place so it doesn't shift and stuff doesn't fall out the bottom. The pad is 28 inches at the widest so it's easier to do this.

>>>>When I closed the belt for the first time the weight transfered to my hips and the pack simply melted to my back. This is key for whatever "frame" strategy is employed. The pack must not be overstuffed because it will then become a hard, sausage-like lump in the middle of your back and not conform to the natural curvature of the spine. Normally I do not use a stuff sack for my quilt, but when using the Core or Zero I found they both carried much more comfortably when using a stuff sack that reduced the volume of the quilt.

I'm getting very tempted to try a Burn but one thing is holding me back: my TT Notch. It's so long (16") that I don't think it will work well on the interior of the Burn so I'm wondering about carrying it under the top strap on the exterior. I like how it carries up top on my ULA Circuit but I have the intuitive feeling that carrying it on the exterior of a frameless pack is not going to work well. I'm semi-regretting my choice of not going with the Protrail. And no, there are too many creepy-crawlies for me to tarp it here in AZ. Any thoughts on carrying a 27 ounce tent on top of a frameless pack under the top strap? Is my apprehension warranted?

"It's so long (16") that I don't think it will work well on the interior of the Burn" I don't understand – You can stuff it into any sack, sized specifically to your needs. It doesn't have to be a "sausage". My packed Hexamid looks more like a large phone book. What am I missing?

I realize that even using a stuff sack at all is a contentious topic here at BPL but I will always use one with my shelter to keep dirt/sap off of my other gear. As Greg mentioned, you can mush a poleless shelter into any shape you wish. Cylinder shaped stuff sacks that are filled to capacity are difficult to load into a pack efficiently without losing valuable room. I've found it's best to buy or make a stuff sack that's way oversized for the shelter so you can mush in in around your other gear as you see fit.

What am I missing? He mentioned it to be a TarpTent Notch. The CF stays on both ends of the tent are integral to the tent. Not easy to separate these stays from the tent. So it's going to be a fairly rigid cylinder when packed up. billy

He's using a Notch though, so it's not poleless. Those carbon fiber end struts are long and you end up with a long packed shape regardless of the stuff sack Edit: Billy beat me to it

"He's using a Notch though, so it's not poleless. Those carbon fiber end struts are long and you end up with a long packed shape regardless of the stuff sack" I have a Hi Tech V Lite that uses a similar system. You still have the option to fold/roll it a number of ways where it is packed more efficiently. As Greg mentioned, flat like a phone book is another way. A tightly packed >=Nalgene sized stuff sack filled to capacity with a shelter is an inefficient way to pack a ruck in my experience.

I've use a Notch carried vertically in my pack – worked well on the CT with an Osprey Talon 33, and on other trips with a Macpac Amp Race 25.

REally no reason to pack the Notch differently than it' long tube shape… very simple to put it in the pack vertically and pack other things around it… it's really not a problem. Or put it in one of the side pockets and under the compression straps on the outside. billy

I can't find a height dimension for a Burn, but I assume it is at least 20" tall. Imagine a stuff sack that 18" tall, preferably about as wide as the Burn, and perhaps 4"+ deep. Stuff the Notch, poles and all, and then flatten the package into a tall, wide, rectangular form. Load it first, placing it against the front of the pack, and then load the rest of the gear around it.

Or use a stuff sack for the fabric part and put the poles on the outside? I don't see the problem here. Certainly not enough to consider using a different shelter! But I am more than a little dense at times.

to address the OP's subject title " Philosophical questions about moving towards UL " to me this is a 2 pronged issue. it's not just about getting lighter and lighter gear. its about less and less gear also. if you bring an ultra light kitchen sink, you are still binging a kitchen sink. isn't UL really about leaving the kitchen sink home ? this takes us back to the meeting nature on its own terms philosophy. there is another thread going on about UL electronics. isn't the true spirit of UL simply leaving your electronics home and meeting nature on her own terms ? if you can't cut the cord all at once, then leave one piece home at a time, until you are secure enough to do without.

"Or use a stuff sack for the fabric part and put the poles on the outside?" Like I said in my previous post, the 'poles' are not easy to separate from the tent… not something you would want to do every day when you take down and put up the tent… And… it's not, strictly speaking, the 'poles' we are talking about as there are not poles for the Notch (treking poles used for poles)… rather, it is the carbon fiber struts at both ends of the tent… hard to remove and put back twice a day. billy

"if you bring an ultra light kitchen sink, you are still binging a kitchen sink. isn't UL really about leaving the kitchen sink home ? this takes us back to the meeting nature on its own terms philosophy." Heck yea Matthew… be a man and leave that stinking tent at home and sleep cheek to cheek with them thar rattle snakes and scorpions… if it rains just throw your rain jacket over your sleeping bag… or huddle under a bush… oh and while you're at it leave you rain jacket and your boots at home… too heavy… meet nature on it's own terms man… what kinda weenie are you anyway??? Better yet… just go stinking naked and truly meet nature on it's own terms… be a man Matthew!!! :) Billy

"isn't the true spirit of UL simply leaving your electronics home and meeting nature on her own terms ?" It isn't my fault that Mother Nature is a Norwegian Death Metal Fan. The only way I know to appease her is to bring an iPhone and headphones as my vocal cords are not up to the challenge. So begins another one true UL religion thread.

"" Better yet… just go stinking naked and truly meet nature on it's own terms… be a man Matthew!!! "" well, John Muir did have his long overcoat, so I think we can allow that.

"well, John Muir did have his long overcoat, so I think we can allow that." Yea… but I bet that overcoat weight more than most BPLers base weight… :) billy

you're ranting too much and missing the picture billy. ul is more than base weight.

Sorry, but JM's overcoat must go too… even he didn't 'truly' meet nature on it's own terms. billy

Ha…all this from a furless, clawless, fangless, thin skinned hominid. Thank goodness for our brains, without which we could never have "philosophical questions" or survive. ;-)

I didn't think my Q about carrying the tent up top would generate so many responses. I'm also surprised none of them answered my question: is carrying a tent up top on the exterior of a frameless pack a bad idea? I suspect it is. That said, I do appreciate all of the responses.

I carried a BV450 on the top of my burn secured with my top strap during one section of the PCT (Tuolumne meadows to Bridgeport) It was more awkward than anything. Because my pack didn't have a frame (well my nightlight pad was my frame) or a hip belt the cannister just sat on top. It didn't carry that strange and I didn't notice anything too weird besides the extra 2lbs of weight. Have you thought of just putting the TT notch in one of the side pockets? It would sit streamlined and still be out of the way. You can always put water in the rear mesh pocket or the other side pocket.

"I didn't think my Q about carrying the tent up top would generate so many responses. I'm also surprised none of them answered my question: is carrying a tent up top on the exterior of a frameless pack a bad idea? I suspect it is." If it's a) an UL tent, b) properly secured, and c) not rubbing the back of your neck or making the pack uncomfortable for you, then no. What works from me from bottom to top in my frameless Prophet (the way the pack is filled): Pack liner Prolite 3/4 folded in thirds, in liner, and against back. Sleeping bag sans stuff sack Any and all clothes that I won't need during the day in Monkey pillow case along with pillow (Twist and fold pack liner at this point) Food bag in own S2S eVent/eVac bag Shelter in own stuff sack (Hexamid Twin or Grace Solo, polycryo, stakes) Hardshell or Poncho. Gloves, buff, whatever else I think I might need wrapped inside Cook kit in own stuff sack to keep esbit off of gear Gallon sized ziplock full of food that I'll graze off of during the day Front pocket Gallon sized ziplock filled with FAK, compass, and other doodads I may need whilst hiking. That's just me though. Your preferences may vary. A long way of saying that I do carry my shelter at the top of my pack albeit inside.

I hate strapping stuff to my pack – top, sides, pockets,… If everything is inside the pack, less chance of falling off. Protected from rain and other stuff. Water bottle stays cold (or doesn't freeze). Doesn't make noises as it shifts as I walk along. Or the weight can shift. Mostly just aesthetic